Corvos
6d ago
Oh, please. Go and level North Korea if you're so worried about your taboos, followed by India, Israel and Pakistan. This is about 'we can and we felt like it and hey, it worked in Venezuela'. If it were actually a sacred do-or-die moment where the correct action was obvious, everybody would be on board.
The fact that America is increasingly willing to kill for a chocolate bar, with a significant contingent of Americans grinning and making finger-guns the whole way, is why the collective response of the rest of the world has been to treat you like a drunk who barged onto the subway with a gun on his hip muttering 'bang, bang' when he looks at people.
The feud of the Hatfields and the McCoys was, as far as I know, popularised by Mark Twain's book Huckleberry Finn, where a chapter is dedicated to their exploits or those of an expy. Perhaps they were well known anyway and this was merely a literary reference, but it's where I know them from.
Thing is, you are fundamentally a patriotic American at your core and you know in your heart that yours is the best country even if it's not perfect. As you should! Moderate patriotism is a virtue. But it means you cannot genuinely empathise with people like me who are looking at the behaviour of America and Americans right now and getting really creeped out.
My history of posts on this site is available for you to make up your own mind, but 10 years ago I would have classed myself as definitely pro-American. The Americans weren't always perfect, there was Iraq, they had the usual imperial tendency to have difficulty distinguishing their personal interests from the interests of the world, but they did their best and there were much worse people out there.
I got rather more dubious about America's social and economic dominance once wokeness and especially BLM came in: race relations in the UK were never perfect but I didn't like watching them become a carbon-copy of America's, right up to and including the 'hands up, don't shoot' slogan when police in the UK don't have guns. Trump and the American Right were fighting hard though, and things did indeed turn the corner, and I was very pleased to see it. Again, please read my posting history.
I went off Israel in a big way after Oct 7 when the biggest contingent of pro-Israelis on this site started just outright saying, 'look, it's time to exterminate the Palestinians now'. I don't want to huff and puff on the internet, and I don't like the Palestinians or Hamas either, but I was genuinely shocked at the number of people who seemed to be A-OK with campaigns of racial extermination as long as it was their guys doing the exterminating.
Likewise, a few months ago, when Trump suddenly decided that he wanted Greenland, the sovereign territory of an ally and perhaps the least woke country in Western Europe, I was horrified to see a big contingent of Americans on this site with massive grins on their faces saying, "Yeah! Fuck those smug Europeans! Sorry boys, if you didn't want us to stomp on your balls you should have grown some bigger ones!" Even from posters I respect, often the response was essentially, "Look, you've been weak and disrespectful, and if my party wants to stomp on your balls then you basically deserve it."
Ultimately your post seems to me to be saying that America deserves to subjugate the world forever, and if anyone decides they don't like it or they'd at least like to try being stamped on by a different boot, then that makes them an enemy and a threat to oh-so-benevolent American hegemony which needs to be dealt with. "The whole world benefits from U.S. lead global stability and this affirms our capacity," you say happily. Have you asked the world? In general, I think your position contains a serious Kafka trap where any serious attempt to defy American authority or defend against American hostility (like preparing nuclear weapons that could actually defend against an American attack, or seeking good relations with other powerful nations, or engaging in proxy economic or military activity, the last of which I do not endorse) is automatic proof of guilt indicating the need to subjugate or raze. Strong 'if you didn't resist, I wouldn't have to hurt you' vibes.
I feel confident saying that America could and would black-bag my democratically-elected prat Prime Minister if they felt like it and the response from the aforementioned contingent would be the same as it was to Gaza, Denmark and Iran. They, and the US government, seem to feel that the problem with Iraq and Afghanistan wasn't that they killed vast numbers of innocent people and turned whole nations into warlord-infested torture deserts for nothing, but that America was mildly inconvenienced while doing so.
TLDR: Apologies for being a little heated. I think our positions and priors are too different for us to viscerally appreciate each others' positions, but
a lot of people are actively cheering for America to lose and to support Iran, a country that is recently accused of killing tens of thousands of its own population and actively, joyfully supports global terrorism.
Likewise the U.S. isn't an amazing hegemon, but people cheering for China or Russia to take over?
please consider what it might say about America's recent behaviour if it causes sensible people feel even an ounce of warmth towards Iran (whose government is as awful as you say). Likewise, that the People's Republic of China is looking sensible and level-headed. I hope that this is America's 'wolf warrior' moment and the bloodlust will recede and America will realise that other people's opinions matter at least a little bit and retrench, but I'm not confident.
Corvos
6d ago
Thanks. I liked Tom Sawyer a lot better than Huckleberry Finn, and it shows. Tbh I never got the hang of Twain in general, though. Good with a zinger but just too grim and cynical to enjoy spending time with.
There is a very beautiful moment in the otherwise execrable Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court where the King comforts a leprosy victim, but apart from that I can't say I've ever enjoyed his oeuvre.
As long as you don't mind looking like an absolute psychopath, sure. I don't believe that within America, 'Hanson Jr. raped my daughter so I slaughtered every child at his school with an AK' is considered appropriate. The Hatsons Hatfields and the McCoys were jokes even in their own time, not role models.
Honestly, hand on heart, it looks extremely sudden to me and simply about Trump's desire to have a big block of land that he can colour in on the map and point to when his presidency is done and say, "I did that." One can construct reasons for America to want ownership of it after the fact, but I personally don't believe they're the true cause. Just a personal opinion. But putting all that aside...
My understanding is that Denmark’s stance is the traditional American approach to property rights. You have the right to offer stuff unilaterally, sure, and maybe the other person will decide that they're interested after all. But "it's mine, I like it, there's no BATNA you're willing to offer and I don't want to give it to you right now" is equally a valid response. Do you disagree? Does that disagreement extend to your daily life and your own possessions?
I sincerely appreciate the good will (I can't prove it over the tubes). Again, though, becoming hostile and threatening when someone doesn't give you what you want is the ur-bully act. If you demand someone’s ice-cream out of their hand and you say, 'look, I want that ice cream, there's no reason you shouldn't give it to me for a fair price', then 'no thank you, we’re not interested' is a fair response and getting hostile is inappropriate. It's just in the nature of things that this interaction looks very different to the two different people involved.
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