Eleocharis
14hr ago
Why are you asking me a question that is both readily answered by reading the linked article and completely irrelevant to whether CECOT can be characterized as a torture prison?
Eleocharis
23hr ago
Sanctuary cities have been the subject of various legal challenges which have generally determined that cities and states are not compelled to enforce or assist with federal immigration law.
Again, it would be completely reasonable for the Republicans, who control the legislative and executive branches and have a favourable Supreme Court, to change how the asylum system works. They aren't doing that!
Eleocharis
23hr ago
Ah yes, those bleeding heart liberals worrying about things like due process and the rule of law and, uh, preventing torture.
I guess don't be surprised that people actually believe in these things and are willing to put their lives on the line for them. Sure seems like it would be a lot better to, say, propose a bill to change laws around asylum etc., but for some reason those who are currently in power don't seem interested in doing that.
Eleocharis
1d ago
That's fair, probably shouldn't be in that list. It's clearly not being done in good faith though when they are not investigating the ice agents involved.
Eleocharis
1d ago
If you are told to do something by a judge, and you don't do it, in what sense have you not ignored that judge?
That's fair to some extent. Maybe it's kind of pedantic but I do think there is a difference between an order to "leave the country" vs. "if you do not leave the country you can be deported", and I'm not sure which form the removal order would have taken.
Eleocharis
1d ago
Restraining them from what?
From, for example, deporting people directly to a foreign torture prison. I fully believe the decision-makers would still be doing things like that if not for negative press attention.
None of the things I initially listed can be characterised as mistakes. Sure, agents can make bad decisions in the heat of the moment, agents can be acting on bad information, whatever. But deporting people to CECOT is a policy, not a mistake. Somebody made the conscious decision to detain Ozturk over an op ed, and to continue to detain her long after it was clear she had done nothing wrong. High-ranking officials made the decision to refer to Good as a terrorist and Pretti as an assassin. Someone decided that 42 days was an appropriate training period for new ICE agents. Somebody made it policy that agents shouldn't wear uniforms, but should wear masks. Somebody decided that they were going to investigate Good's widow.
Those are the things that need to be owned up to to convince me that the administration wants to maintain the rule of law, human rights and so on. As far as I can tell they don't actually think those things are more important than mass deportation, so they will of course never be able to credibly convince me that they do.
Eleocharis
1d ago
I don't know why we accept asylum seekers at all
The United States accepts asylum seekers because of laws such as the Refugee Act of 1980, which was passed into law by legitimately elected democratic representatives.
And the faster we can dismantle this absurd system and start deporting the people abusing it the better.
Perhaps you should petition your elected representatives to change the laws to do so. Until then, the United States has offered people a legal process to be allowed to live in a country, and if they are taking part in that process exactly how they are supposed to, it is obviously not legitimate or moral to suddenly deport them to a torture prison because you don't like what the laws say.
Eleocharis
1d ago
That inmates there report things such as:
"Four guards grabbed me. And they beat me until I bled, to the point of agony. They knocked our faces against the wall; that was when they broke one of my teeth." https://www.cbsnews.com/news/men-on-beatings-in-salvadoran-prison-after-deportation-from-us-60-minutes-transcript/
Eleocharis
1d ago
If ICE owned up to mistakes, apologized, and indicated that they would try to do better, I would agree with you. But I see them doing exactly the opposite, do you disagree?
I believe that negative press attention is currently the only thing actually restraining them.
Eleocharis
1d ago
To be clear, what happened is that a lawyer, against instructions, admitted that it was an error, and was fired for it. I do not believe that the official position of the administration has ever been to admit that error, although I could be wrong.
Eleocharis
1d ago
so now ICE can't deport illegal immigrants back to El Salvador because Bukele will put some in jail?
That is not what happened. Venezuelans, some of whom had not been accused of any crime and were in the middle of asylum cases, were deported to El Salvador with the understanding that they would be sent to CECOT, with the US paying El Salvador for this service. By all accounts "torture prison" is a perfectly reasonable way to describe CECOT, "concentration camp" is another word one could use and only be exaggerating a little. As far as I can tell, no official has apologized for this or outlined what steps will be taken to prevent something equally horrifying from happening again.
I'm not sure how the other two things I listed could be considered fake news either.
Call me a bleeding heart all you like, but this administration cannot be trusted to treat deportees humanely, and so, well I would generally agree that sanctuary city policies go too far, loosening them right now is a terrible idea.
Eleocharis
1d ago
ICE (et al.) do not currently have any credibility that they would act moderately and reasonably. Have they apologised or even admitted error for sending innocent people to a foreign torture prison? Have they apologised for detaining someone for writing a milquetoast op ed? Have they apologised for calling people their agents have shot assassins and terrorists based on zero evidence?
Until they express that they have not been acting moderately, and express a desire to change, I don't buy that the protesters are doing anything but revealing abuses that were already happening. Yeah, these specific clashes with protesters wouldn't be happening. But I don't believe that they have any desire or intention to prevent equally egregious actions from happening when the cameras aren't on.
Eleocharis
1d ago
I don't really understand what happened for the last 26 years as to why she was never deported, but she hasn't ignored anything, she was checking in with ICE regularly as asked.
Under existing law, she cannot be detained, there does not appear to be any dispute on this fact. The administration is perfectly capable of proposing changes to the law to change this, or to change whatever system has resulted in her staying for 26 years. But they haven't even tried!
At the very least, I don't think it's disputed that prisoners in CECOT are in horribly crowded cells and do not have any right to visitation or communication with the outside world.
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