Gaashk
1yr ago
I saw new comments on the culture war thread (the ones on ethnicity and immigration) while logged out, so I logged in to add something. They were not there; the first post was on Ukraine from doglatine. I made sure it was sorted by new and reloaded the page with no effect. I logged out to see if I was imagining it. They were there. Logged back in, and they were gone. Not sure what's going on.
Also, this site doesn't work for me in Safari (all the text is blank), but is fine in Chrome, other than the missing comments while logged in.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Like some others here, I have never heard "ethnicity" used to refer to anything other than ancestry in the past several decades I've heard the term. The person of Chinese descent living in Hungary is ethnically (Han or whatever his biological ancestors were), and culturally Hungarian, if it's important to make the distinction. Or if not, he is Hungarian, and racially Asian.
This may be because I'm American, and the usage is different in Europe. But if it's different, it's not recently different. If a person's biological ancestors are from France, but he's raised by Greek Americans, he is ethnically (some kind of French) and culturally American or (regional) American or Greek American, depending on how much he participates in Greek specific cultural customs. Calling him ethnically Greek would not so much confuse people as simply miscommunicate his background. And nobody calls anyone ethnically American unless they're emphasizing that they don't know where their ancestors are from.
Gaashk
1yr ago
the transition from girl to woman is marked by the onset of menstruation
I've heard this claim before, and it doesn't make sense. While that may well be the case in some cultures, it is very much not the case in Heroine's Journey producing civilizations. When do you start calling someone a woman rather than a "teenage girl?" 18? 21? When they have a child? People were calling me a girl at 24, because I was wandering around the world volunteering instead of establishing a family.
If we're going to go the biological route, the marker is pregnancy, or marriage with the assumption of family obligations, not menstruation.
It's easier, I suppose, for a girl to become a single mother and therefore fully a woman if she chooses to, though it's pretty rough going and strongly discouraged. She's considered a foolish woman who suffers justly, not a heroine. She's wise if she finds a man with potential who others have overlooked, and so can get a higher quality partner than might be assumed based on her humble origins (c.f. Beauty and the Beast).
So women's novels tend to revolve around finding the right man to form her family with -- who's trustworthy and attractive and able to defend and provide, and who will be a good companion and father. Someone mentioned historically important female novelists, and they were all about exercising proper judgement, and the story tends to revolve around misperception, fear of loss, then finally sorting things out and marrying. Jane Austen is very much this, all the time. They don't so much change, as the perception of their suitors changes -- or maybe he goes on a hero's journey and changes -- and they realize that he is in fact the right one for them before it's too late and he gives up. So, in Persuasion, Anne turns Wentworth down because she isn't sure he can provide a stable home for her and potential children, he goes off and proves himself by becoming a rich captain, and the rest of the novel is about the very constrained way they have to feel out whether both parties are still interested or not.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Yeah, and I find that kind of odd, and refuse to answer that question. Apparently my state is about half and half hispanic and non-hispanic; hispanic is larger by far than non-hispanic white. This seems a little silly. "My abuela speaks Spanish, so I guess that's my ethnicity." Especially since it's asked as a yes/no question on forms, with no other options.
Come to think of it, I have heard "ethnic" used in a cultural adjacent way before -- "ethnic restaurants" serve food that can be traced back to a more specific culinary tradition than non-ethnic restaurants -- be that India or Ethiopia or Serbia or whatever, but are not regionally prevalent. American diners and Mexican restaurants are not ethnic in my region.
It's especially ironic you use Hungarian as your example.
I used it because the OP did -- I admittedly know nothing about Hungary, and they may well use different distinctions than Americans. If a Hungarian-American said they were ethnically Siberian, I would believe them.
Gaashk
1yr ago
First baby screamed All. The. Time for the first 7 months or so, and continued to be fairly high maintenance thereafter. Second baby exists partly as a distraction for first baby, and is also much calmer and more enjoyable as an infant. I do not think this is on account of anything we did, as far as I can tell.
Gaashk
1yr ago
"we decided to make an all-black cast for this adaptation to lend a completely new perspective to the story and give audiences an actually novel experience."
On that note, I looked up the other actors for the new Little Mermaid. King Triton is played by Spanish actor Javier Bardem, and Prince Eric is played by white Londoner Jonah Hauer-King. Ursula is also white. They cast a black woman to be Ariel's mother (presumably), to have some cover for this, but that shouldn't be necessary.
I am not really the target audience for this, and it's probably reflecting someone's preferences that the father and love interest of the protagonist are white, while her comic animal side kick is played by a black man. Maybe? Disney is usually good at reflecting what people want to see. I don't like it -- it accentuates the pandering in comparison to an entire underwater kingdom of black merpeople.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I'm American, and she doesn't look black to me either. After hearing about it for the first time when it made the news last year, I now think... she still doesn't look black, actually. Her hair and nose especially. Unless she's displaying stereotypically black speech patterns or something in private, the race angle here is transparently silly.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Do you make art?
I make art as a hobby and teach it, and feel moderately positive toward the recent developments in AI art.
There are a couple of different things that will become more obviously different. There's commercial art, which will likely be extensively created by AI in the fairly near future. The automation of anime nudes hardly seems like a loss worth mourning. There's high status Artist art, which will not change all that much, and already isn't much about visual skill, so much as social skill. There's popular art, which might become some kind of combination thing, with different classifications and disclaimers. There's gift art, which is almost entirely about effort and thoughtfulness, and not much about skill. This seems intrinsic in children as soon as they can talk, and won't be changing much.
Personally, I like the process of art making more than artistic artifacts, and am generally uninterested in artwork that clearly took painstaking detail oriented labor. There are photorealists who show off by making 100 hr paintings of extremely detailed faces or whatever, and I understand caring about that, but do not care about it myself. This seems unlikely to be faked very often -- process videos are already very popular, and will likely become even more so. There is not enough status at stake, and it's rather niche. There isn't really any reason you couldn't still find detailed realistic artists practicing their craft.
There's a quote attributed to Picasso that "when art critics get together they talk about content, style, trend and meaning, but when painters get together they talk about where can you get the best turpentine." I like paint and wool and cold pressed cotton paper and warm wax and translucency and the smell of certain mediums and the changes that pottery undergoes as it progresses through multiple firings. I'm excited that there are now water mixable oil paints (no turpentine required!) and Derwent ink pencils. These artisanal practices have already been stripped of most of their importance. They are crafts, practiced by retired ladies in their craft sheds. They are unserious. Plenty of visual art is already like that as well. Hobbyist empty nesters painting impressionist oils of the local wildlife. This is a bit dispiriting, but will not be meaningfully changed by AI. Children will still always give something they made to their family, old ladies will still paint Monet knock offs of their regional landscape. These phenomena are not primarily about the image as such anyway, but about the process and physical manifestation of love or attention.
Gaashk
1yr ago
You say you don't like to read books, but if you were joking about that, some Bronte novels might do you good.
There's a very strong selection effect at play.
Fun, outgoing kids with passable executive function, from families that fit in well to mainstream society, in neighborhoods with decent schools will, of course, go to those schools.
Kids who are weird and anxious and bullied, who fit in poorly at their local school, who are horribly distracted by being in a room full of other kids all day, are much more likely to be homeschooled. Mothers who fit into their work environment and enjoy it have much less incentive to tighten their finances and stay home with 2-6 children all day every day. Being isolated isn't great, but it's better than being constantly bullied and judged with such assessments as "something really vital just hasn’t developed in them and probably never will."
Meanwhile, there are children who are bundles of relentless, socially oriented energy from the day they're born. They're always happy when there are new kids to talk to, they toddle up to stranger kids in the park at two and ask them to dance. They bounce back from being yelled at in a few seconds. They wear their parents out and grind them down if they try keeping their children home. The parents send them to school out of exhaustion, even if their philosophy suggests differently. They send them to public schools, both because it's cheaper, and because it's more work to get these kids to follow the rules.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I feel already overstuffed with opinions and uneasy with my online think piece consumption rate, and if this article were behind a paywall I would immediately forget it existed. Freddie and the NYT are, of course, entitled to charge for their content, but I will then simply ignore it and feel mildly annoyed when it comes up in a search.
There's a tipping point somewhere. Lately I've noticed having to wade through five page essays interspersed with huge photos and video ads to view recipes online. This freezes up my phone, which is a problem sine I'm mostly looking recipes up at the store to see what to buy. There's likely some level of inconvenience at which I will actually start buying physical printed cookbooks again. Physical cookbooks would come up as a solution before subscribing to a food substack, though I could imagine someone else doing that and it making sense for them. I subscribed to New Masters Academy videos for a couple months, and didn't feel cheated.
There are enjoyable and useful ways to deliver advertising content. Unboxing videos are surprisingly popular. I like to read subscription box review sites, which are full of affiliate links and paid content. This seems fine, since I'm considering getting a curated selection of cocktail mixers or whatever, and the site will inform me of which ones are on offer that month and if there are any specials or not. Often I prefer these articles to those written by the NYT.
Facebook ads seem about right -- they're clearly ads, but are for things I would actually consider buying, and occasionally do buy, and do not feel tricked. Youtube ads are worse, and seem to be getting worse every year or so; I'm not sure if there's a point at which I would pay for Youtube premium, but it's probably good that they provide the option.
If I had to choose between an internet hiding behind paywalls, and an internet full of obnoxious ads, I would probably choose the ads. There was one website where I was trying to read an article about Roundup, and the text kept moving when the ads changed shape, jumping around erratically, and I would lose my place. Eventually I saved it to PDF, which solved the problem. I would certainly not have paid money for the article, and very certainly wouldn't have subscribed to anything for it. I would rather see Freddie's Substack marred by even shady lottery animation than not be able to see it at all without subscribing (which I wouldn't do, because of the automatic renewal and having to remember to cancel aspect of that). But can certainly see how he would prefer subscriptions.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Thanks, I'll check them out!
My father had several James Beard cookbooks that I remember fondly.
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People who's version of homeschooling involves locking their children up indefinitely in their home should, indeed, not homeschool their kids.
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School quality varies widely. There are schools that foster community and good social skills. There are schools that foster anger and boredom. There are a lot of schools that are somewhere in the middle.
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Edit: To see if this idea makes sense, particulars are probably important. It's possible that we have two much kindergarten but not enough high school. Your intuition is that more school would help. My intuition is that more churches and clubs might help, it's hard to say, and that we have quite enough school, possibly two much. I'm not certain how I would frame that question to find out if there are any studies on it, and probably won't put the time into finding out.
Gaashk
1yr ago
It partly depends on how committed you are to your roommate.
I am usually the messier person in this situation, and did not like having neater housemates. They would get upset with my slovenliness, and I would get upset about them being judgy and uptight. They thought I was free riding, I thought they were making unnecessary work for themselves. One older woman was especially terrible to live with, because she didn't realize that her preferences were preferences, and thought that my other roommate and I were simply bad people for having messier living standards. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sink_b_9055288
The solution was to eventually marry someone about as messy as myself. We now clean up (not very thoroughly) about once a week, and feel better about ourselves afterwards. In the meantime, we have a baby and a toddler, so things get very dirty. If we ever have money, we will first clean up what we ourselves notice, and then hire someone else to come in and clean the things we do not notice, which is a lot.
Other reasonably stable situations have included living in households with a full time homemaker in them, in foreign exchange and English teaching situations. I was still messier than them, they still ended up doing way more housework than me, but they seemed to consider that their actual job, and not something to get resentful over.
Something to consider when having these conversation is that having to maintain higher cleanliness standards they prefer wears both on you and on the other party, but the other party might feel ashamed to admit their actual preferences, leading them to promise to do things and then not actually do them. Maybe they say they will scrub the bathroom once a week, but to them that means a bit of spraying and a couple of wipes, and to you it means some kind of deep clean. When bringing this up, try to remember that it is likely that what they are doing represents their actual preference. They are cleaning until they are comfortable with the situation, and a bit more than they want to make you more comfortable. They may not have an intuition for what will or won't bother you.
When I had my first baby and no washing machine, I washed clothes every two weeks, sometimes every three. Sometimes I bought baby clothes because it was easier than washing that week. That wasn't because I thought someone else would wash them if I just held out long enough (I knew for sure that they wouldn't). It was because I was more willing to wear the same shirt three times than sit at the laundromat reading sad texts about the screaming baby. Clean people sometimes don't realize that people really live like this when they aren't around, and make comments like the messier person is just waiting for them to do the housework for them. That probably isn't true.
Anyway, in the long run there are two solutions. Find a housemate with similar preferences, or the neater person takes on more homemaking duties in exchange for the messier person doing something else instead (usually involving spending more money, but it could involve things like homemade decorations or gardening or something else non-financial to make the living situation more pleasant)
Gaashk
1yr ago
I had never heard of this before.
In my circles, I tend to hear complaints of people being on their phones too much, and it seems to be low status to have a lot of apps, or even a phone that lets you install a lot of apps, probably including iPhones. The priest was recommending $200 phones that were basically like iPhones that wouldn't let you install apps on them. These were advertised as being clean or simple or pure or some such virtuous sounding thing.
Anyway, at the $80 - $500 mini computer range, I doubt it's about conspicuous consumption to any large degree, but more about signaling adherence to community values. I'm not completely sure what those values are among those who care, but probably something like good taste and conventional aesthetics.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I feel like I should’ve specified this is a long term partner
Yes! This makes a huge difference! Are you considering children at some point? That makes a huge difference too.
the chores don't get done in a timely fashion and it drives me crazy, so I do them anyway.
In a long term relationship, it's possible this isn't the most useful way of looking at things. It might be useful to consider other perspectives, or at least specify what exactly "the chores" entail, and what exactly is bothering you about pushing them off, and whether there's an area of homemaking comparative advantage for your partner, even when thinking about the problem more generally.
It's easy to fall into a hole of dishes, floors, bathrooms. Dishes, floors, laundry, bathrooms. This can be crazy making for some people.
We have cats, some chickens and may get a pig. I know that no matter how dirty our house gets, or how stressed he is, my husband will definitely remember to do important things to keep them alive, even if they were my idea and I kind of forced them on him, and I tend to forget about them. If he went on a trip and I forgot to look after them, he would be very angry, and rightly so, they might die or something. But in general, he's the person who makes sure they're alright, because he simply is, and if he was feeling very stressed about that, we'd probably be better off not having them.
He is also fire keeper. He likes fires and cares about them in a way I do not. When he does not make a fire, our house is heated by a gas furnace, because I will definitely not make one.
Meanwhile, we also have a baby. We both know without discussing it that I will get up in the middle of the night with the baby. If she's going through something and I have to get up three times, I'll do that. If I have to get up five times, I'll get up five times. This is completely independent of the state of the rest of the house. There are valid reasons why it traditionally makes sense for women to stay home with babies and young children, and this is true even though I don't care that much for babies in general. This is my specific baby, and I probably won't give up or get mad at it even on two hours of sleep. Due to circumstances, husband is currently stuck with more childcare responsibilities than I am. It's terrible. We both hate it. It will be solved when we get different jobs, or when the children go into preschool. Maybe when both things happen.
There's a difference between things that should be solved internally -- by talking things through, making lists, assigning tasks, and so on, and things that should be externally -- by getting different jobs, getting rid of pets, getting rid of dishes, changing heat sources, getting a washing machine, hiring someone to deep clean the bathrooms, stuff like that.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Orthodox crunchy-cons. Rod Dreher is one of the better know representatives of this subculture, at least around these parts. (Ha, I went to look up his blog, and there he is with a substack and writing about Aella. He has the capacity to write about one good piece a month, but unfortunately blasts out up to a dozen blogs a day instead).
Gaashk
1yr ago
In addition to this, it's focused around the specific parts of Christianity those complaining have unhappy memories of. There are Day of the Dead alters in public schools and libraries.
I'm less certain about Ramadan -- there would be endless complaints in Red areas, and it would probably be forbidden in places like schools and libraries, other than as a statement that it exists. I have not seen Passover celebrated in public institutions, despite most Christians feeling neutral to positive about it.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I instinctively almost never give 10/10 scores to anything, and appreciate it when companies that are really just wondering if service is good enough use a three point scale; I think it captures what they're looking for better (was it good enough? Was it so terrible I'll be complaining to everyone who will listen?)
Gaashk
1yr ago
Interesting to hear, that sounds frustrating.
I have a three year old and a one year old, and my main experience with new books are from the local library (non traditional books tend to be hispanic or occasionally highlighting things like Kwanzaa), the school book fair (highlights animal characters), and my own parents, who are very choosy and conservative. Working in a public school, I have not particularly encountered this.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I hadn't heard of her before, and am looking a bit at Lulie's Twitter and website. Neither seem particularly approachable or interesting at first glance. The parts about something I have some expertise in (teaching and learning art) seem to be presenting very well known information (the sort of thing you get out of any intro to drawing class), with no angle or interesting take on it.
What do you like about her?
Gaashk
1yr ago
These suggestions are, of course, on everyone's wishlist. They are not, however, concrete.
Direct Instruction
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean seven hours of lectures every day, no dice. If you mean "teachers are expected to teach phonics and arithmetic explicitly, yes, they are already required to do this in most places.
restoring discipline via creating credible expectations of punishment for rowdy students
What would the punishments be? How would you enforce them in the face of the "black children more likely" crowd? Don't say "I would start a small private school with no low performing children of color." Those already exist, and are doing well enough. They are not where the illiteracy lies.
raising standards in teachers
So you... give them a harder test? And then when you don't have enough teachers and there are smart people teaching 50 6 year olds at a time who quit after six months because that's impossible, you... what, exactly?
We should be hiring smarter people to be teachers
Everyone already wants this. This is not a concrete suggestion.
Improving the working environment
In what way?
Training of teachers needs to be thoroughly reformed along evidence-based lines, not trendy buzzwords
Lol. This is, of course, what the educationalists say. This is how they keep their positions churning out new low quality "research" and "professional development" year after year. This is wearing out teachers, as they struggle to "collect and analize data" in 30 minute segments twice a week. How would you prevent this without being empowered to personally vet that "evidence."
There's probably more low-hanging fruit like direct instruction that could be adopted.
You already mentioned that one. None of this is low hanging fruit. Everything you mentioned is pushed constantly, exhaustingly, unremittingly by the education establishment already. This is just a pie in the sky wishlist, which the world is already flooded with.
I don't have a good solution either, that fits within the very onerous constraints of existing within a huge bureaucracy that's determined to equalize unequal things.
There are educational theorists with actually concrete suggestions, but they struggle in the face of unwieldy bureaucracies with a thousand tiny, onerous rules and regulations, of exactly the sort you outline above, and uninterested demographics, which is the hard lift, and the fulcrum of change.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Direct Instruction is widely shunned. Teachers hate it, students like it. It works. It genuinely is low-hanging fruit. I'm referring to an actual technical term hence the capitalization, I don't need to define it. Just search it up!
Yes, it is what I thought it was. I think you're talking about this kind of thing.
So, yeah, there's some tension between the approaches that work best for children with dyslexia and children at risk for illiteracy (but who can read if instructed well), and what at least some teachers prefer.
There are things schools and the educational establishment can do to mitigate this. Letting teachers know up front what they're getting into, rather than BS about Rousseau or whatever. A few schools have teachers follow students as they progress through the elementary grades, rather than staying at one grade level for multiple years, so they don't become burnt out on phonics. Interventionists and tutoring for children who aren't getting enough out of their core courses, using curriculum designed specifically for dyslexia. Programs specifically for the children who already know how to read and are bored with repeated instructions. Aesthetically pleasing special schools for children at no risk of failing to learn to read. I personally do not much want my daughters to do year after year of direct instruction in phonics if they already understand how to read and spell by six or so, which is likely, based on family history. I could be wrong, maybe one of them will prove to be dyslexic or something. ButI would rather they do some kind of aesthetically pleasing Waldorf or Forest School or Montessori or some other kind of hipster program after learning the basics, though I'm unsure if we'll be able to make that happen financially. I would prefer more of a voucher program, probably with more money attaching to the "at-risk" children than to the children who will still learn to read if they spend three hours a day hiking and watercoloring or whatever. I was homeschooled probably four hours a day, which was plenty, and my social circles are very open to this kind of thing. We (myself and my social circle) are in some ways overly literate, and trying to correct for this. My default state is reading, so here I am reading this, rather than planting seeds, which I told myself I would do today. Compulsive reading and akrasia do not show up in the statistics, but much more like what I and the people close to me deal with.
Direct instruction is already very common, but maybe not common enough. I assume you think that whatever the current amount of school time is being spent on direct instruction is not enough. Good news: the pendulum is already swinging. A quick search did not reveal what the current breakdown is. Chat GPT says, likely wrongly, 50% - 80%, and I suppose 50% would be low, if true. Colleges of education like focusing on things like think-pair-share, flipped classrooms, or AVID program kinds of discussion and enquiry, probably because it gives the professors something contentless to do. This is mostly a waste of time, to be sure, especially for lower elementary teachers, since most of the alternative methods assume a child can read, or that they can guess well enough to pretend to read. I was treated to a two hour lecture a while back about how The Neuroscience Shows that children should read about something, rather than than nothing, and that it probably matters what the something is, and it's more interesting to talk about the something than about the reading. The researchers must have been very stupid indeed that they needed neuroscience to figure that out.
If you make the job more attractive by preventing teachers from being harassed, then attrition will reduce and you can be more selective with applicants.
It appears to be unclear what, exactly, the effect of higher quality teachers is, above a certain baseline. But, sure, everyone agrees that this would be great, and sometimes if enough teachers quit or strike, improvements are made. It would be better to not wait that long, for sure.
Anyway, I'm not certain that this is a useful level of abstraction. If a Mottizen were Education Czar, perhaps they could pole-axe the bureaucracy, sequester unruly children, improve the quality of social science research, and bring back the good old days. Or perhaps not.
Right now my state legislature is debating adding 100 hrs of instructional time to our elementary schools. I do not like it, but am not sure if my dislike is well grounded or not. My preference is for less default schooling, rather than more, especially for younger children, along with summer school for kids who aren't doing well, and less expensive play based childcare available to those who want it. I can't really write a letter to the state legislature or go into a meeting with administration and say "pole-axe the bureaucracy!" But there is some support for things like charter schools, vouchers, 4 day school weeks (this is apparently already common in rural districts with long drive times), and half day kindergartens used to be more of a thing. All of which are more like what I support than the alternatives. But I'm still trying to figure out exactly what my position is, and whether it's well grounded or not. It's probably just a case of kids at different ages and from different backgrounds needing different things, and it's a matter of what my own students and daughters happen to need more or less of.
Gaashk
1yr ago
Congrats!
I moved from the hot Southwest desert to Chicago, and while I'm not a fan of cold, it wasn't as bad as I had imagined it to be. Especially, the city is quite efficient at clearing snow, and it's only moderately cold, being on a lake that doesn't freeze, so it's really just January and February that are cold, though the forests are mostly deciduous and ugly until April. Afterwards I spent two years near Lake Superior, which also wasn't as bad as expected, on account of getting higher quality winter clothing and multiple layers. Buy a high quality coat and gloves! The museums, public parks, Lakeside areas, zoos, restaurants, and forest preserves are lovely! There are already frogs out in March, which isn't bad. I would recommend oysters at the Press Room bar's happy hour, a March or April overnight outing to the cypress swamps of Souther Illinois, the Museum of Science and Industry, and the Miwaukee Natural History Museum, proceeded or followed by a bloody mary, beer, and pretzel from a German bar.
Gaashk
1yr ago
I had never heard of that before, despite living in multiple different states, enjoying fried chicken and watermelon in several of them. TIL I learned, I guess. This seems like Jewish goblin and black orc kerfuffles -- it didn't seem obvious, but I guess if you feel a kinship...?
Or, more specifically, the norm of both parents working at jobs that do not allow children to be present, and requiring childcare until they are nearly adults.
There are plenty of traditional arrangements featuring what one might call a small scale women's cooperative growing and processing food and textiles, and I'm not exactly sure what the arrangement for babies and small children usually looked like, but it was almost certainly not the current model where three or so women tend them full time in one building, while their mothers do their own work for 8 hrs straight far enough away they can't stop back in and visit/nurse them periodically. This is very convenient if you're trying to run a factory or something.
Now that preparing food and textiles at a small scale is not so essential, I would like to see a resurgence of child tolerant work that is actually productive -- work from home seems a bit more flexible. I'm not exactly sure what that would look like, but I find it kind of absurd that my own job is all working with children all day, but there's no possible way to bring my own children if daycare falls through. This is certainly convenient for employers, but at the expense of other values, like encouraging family formation.
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