Gdanning
2yr ago
It was indeed a bit unclear, because all the evidence you mentioned was re the law, and indeed you introduced the topic by stating that it was prompted by a discussion re "whether this would be legally considered a warcrime" and that "[a]ll [you] came away from the conversation with is that it's apparently illegal to use any novel forms of warfighting that may save innocent lives." You didn't say anything about expectations or the like.
As for how people actually respond, it is rather difficult to say whether bombing is considered more acceptable than novel forms of violence, since 1) we don't have many examples of the latter; and 2) we have lots of evidence of people disapproving of the former (and indeed of indiscriminately applying the "war crime" label).
Gdanning
2yr ago
They specifically cited this law, and it was apparently common knowledge to them where it came from, but I have no clue
That is from the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
All I came away from the conversation with is that it's apparently illegal to use any novel forms of warfighting that may save innocent lives over bombing Gaza to glass, because bombs are grandfathered into everyone's expectations.
I didn't see the conversation, but it is clearly not the case that bombs are grandfathered into the definition of war crimes that you cite. That is the whole point of the current criticism of Israel's campaign in Gaza, as well as criticisms of recent events in Yemen. The issue re the sewage is not that attacks which damage the environment are per se war crimes, but rather that, as the quote says, only "attack[s that] will cause . . . widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated" are war crimes. Whether flooding tunnels with sewage would be a war crime depends on 1) their anticipated effectiveness; and 2) their likely effect on the environment and civilian populations (cholera, perhaps?)
Gdanning
2yr ago
A typical pattern these last few years has been for employment figures to be "better than expected" when first announced, then quietly revised to much lower numbers a few months later.
Sometimes employment figures are later revised downward, and sometimes they are later revised upward, as was the case in October. Do you have any actual evidence that either is more common than the other? Because in 2022 most of the revisions were upward.
Gdanning
2yr ago
The point is that moderate Muslims are hardly elusive. If OP had referred to "the elusive Christian who is not a young Earth creationist," s/he would have have been inaccurate as well. And it is OP that is the victim of a filter bubble.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Actually, none of them have been black. South Asian and from the Balkans, mostly.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Yeah, when everyone is claiming up to election day that Trump has no chance, and he says, "no, Trump Is Just A Normal Polling Error Behind Clinton,", and then that exact thing happened, people should not be dumping on him.
Gdanning
2yr ago
the elusive moderate Muslim
Every Muslim I have met in the US, and I have met a fair number, has been moderate. Though only one has been from the Middle East.
Gdanning
2yr ago
how is it incumbent on me?
How is it incumbent upon you to "to explain why what Lee did, whatever label you assign to it, does not disqualify him from having a statue"? Because that was the claim you were responding to.
Gdanning
2yr ago
No, but you were specifically referring to my comment, right? Which was about the merits (ie, lack of merit) the use of personal anecdotes to attack the validity of statistics about the norm, right? Because OP wasn't talking about how personal experience colors subjective perceptions of the economy; he was claiming that his personal experience demonstrate an objective truth: that the economy as a whole is doing poorly, and that the data showing otherwise is fake.
So, if you are "not trying to draw inferences about the norm," why are you responding to my comment, which was literally and only about trying to draw inferences about the norm? Which is what OP was doing, There is an entire main thread on perceptions of the economy.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Except that I was not talking about betrayal in the abstract. I was specifically referring to the very particular issue of whether Lee's actions merit a statue, and even more particularly whether his taking up arms against the govt constitutes "treason." You seem to want to talk about something else.
in a progressive's mind, the moral valance of an individual is more a product group membership/loyalty than it is one of personal conduct
Then apparently I am not a progressive.
Progressive can't seem to imagine the shoe ever being on the other foot.
Again, then apparently I am not a progressive
Gdanning
2yr ago
One would think that most people who "care about the label of treason" would be perplexed as to why the label would not fit a military officer who resigned his commission and then led an army on a march towards the country's capital.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Great! But the comment I was referring to was specifically about the accuracy of the official statistics
Gdanning
2yr ago
?? Surely you don’t believe that the government income data is based on an analysis of the income of economic experts.
Gdanning
2yr ago
No, it is because the point is that one person's income is not valid evidence, be it him, me, you, or someone else. Like I said, you are missing the point. As it happens, I quit the full time job I had three years ago because it was boring, and I am now working freelance, with fewer hours but at a higher hourly rate. Do you see how it is difficult to draw inferences about the norm from my personal experience?
Gdanning
2yr ago
It's not a question of who's wrong, it's a question of how we define terms.
Except that sometimes coming up with eccentric definitions obfuscate matters. When the Constitution explicitly defines treason to include precisely what Lee did, then although it is fine to say that you define it differently, but then it is incumbent on you to explain why what Lee did, whatever label you assign to it, does not disqualify him from having a statue. As I have said, there might well be a perfectly legitimate argument in that regardm but "under my definition, Lee did not commit treason" is not such an argument.
Gdanning
2yr ago
That is no doubt true. but that s not the point. OP was arguing that the actual pace of inflation over the last year has been higher than that stated in official inflation statistics, and I was simply pointing out that his personal expenditures are not particularly valid data points upon which to base that claim. Whether people are still pissed off is a completely different issue.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Yes. It's called secession.
That, of course, begs the question.
Many such cases. Some of them successful, the United States of America being one of them.
Yes, and what the American colonists did was clearly treason. There is a reason that Franklin said, "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." Just as they committed treason because they literally waged war against the Crown, so, too, Lee committed treason by literally waging war against the US. The fact that the colonists won means nothing, just as the fact that an act of terrorism leads to the achievement of political goals does not mean the perpetrators did not commit an act of terrorism.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Armies kill people; that's what they do
Yes, that is the point.
Anyhow, if you really think "is no good argument to call him a traitor" -- like, literally, no good argument -- I guess we need to agree to disagree.
Gdanning
2yr ago
So, if I renounce my US citizenship, declare my state an independent country, and lead an army towards Washington, DC, I have not committed treason? Neat trick! It does raise the question of why a pardon of Confederate soldiers was deemed necessary, however. This conversation is bordering on silliness. I really do not understand the need to refuse to concede a single point to one's opponents in an argument. Again, it is perfectly possible to argue that Lee deserves to have a statute, despite committing treason.
Gdanning
2yr ago
I have receipts, too (well, I have credit card statements). Here is what they show:
Morning coffee and bagel in Oct 2022: $7.27 Morning coffee and bagel at same place this morning: $7.54. So, up 3.7%, almost exactly what the CPI says
Movie ticket in Oct 2022: $18 Movie ticket last week: $18
Tandoori chicken and rice at my local Indian restaurant in Oct 2022: $15 Tandoori chicken and rice at my local Indian restaurant last week $15
Monthly subway pass in Oct 2022: $127 Monthly subway pass this month: 132. So. up 3.9 percent
Groceries are hard to compare using credit card statements because I don't know that I buy the exact same things, but I know that I have paid $14.99/lb for farmed salmon at my local store for as long as I remember.
So, once again, this shows that individual anecdotes are not useful.
Gdanning
2yr ago
What he "betrayed" is not particularly relevant. He literally waged war on his country, and he commanded armies which killed tens of thousands of his fellow citizens. To try to argue that that isn't "really" treason is rather silly. It is certainly possible to argue that he deserves a statute despite committing treason -- lots of people deserve statues despite having done some bad things -- but to argue that he didn't commit treason at all does not make sense.
Gdanning
2yr ago
Leaving aside the fact that he was, indeed, charged with treason, are you seriously contending that an American who waged war against the US did not commit treason? Because that is the literal definition of treason
Which is perfectly acceptable under the laws of war. Because you are kicking the nuts of an armed combatant. OP is talking about a different issue: what the limits are or should be re actions that create the risk of killing civilians. Which is a complex topic which cannot be usefully analogized to nutkicking an armed opponent who is seeking to kill you.
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