Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
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User ID: 863
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3d ago
As a matter of simple mathematics, assuming the first chart with the > 50% fail rates is correct, this cannot be the whole story. In the Family Medicine category failure rates go from around 10% in 21-22 to around 50% in 22-23%. Even if no black students had been failing in 21-22 and every black student failed in 22-23 that would not be enough of a change to explain this difference, unless the fraction of students who are black also doubled.
Sure, it definitely seems like there's been an increase in failure rates, but why are the charts inconsistent about failure rates in the same year? It also seems weird to blame black doctors specifically. According to the chart on racial admission data in the article black enrollment over the 2019-2022 time period (the article doesn't have 2023 or 2024) was essentially flat (2212% to 2413%). Unless there is some huge un-shown spike in black enrollment in the last two years it seems hard to see how having a more-black student body is responsible for the increase in failure rates.
ETA:
After reading the article a bit more closely I realized I was interpreting the demographic change chart incorrectly in the context of the tests. Medical school takes four years and the shelf exam test scores in the charts are coming in the third of that four years. So the 22-23 class that has the horrible scores is actually the 2021 demographics and the 23-24 class with the improved scores is the 2022 demographics. We don't have test scores for the last two bars on the demographic chart because they haven't taken the tests in question yet. So the improved 23-24 test scores were achieved with a demographic makeup that is less Asian and more black than the worse 22-23 test scores.
ETA 2:
As Joyful points out below they removed a year of coursework, so this is happening in their second year, so the 2022 demographics are the 2023-2024 test year.
ETA 3:
Confusing numbers for percentages. Updated.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
4d ago
I'm looking at the data in the linked article and having some difficulty squaring the two images with each other, and with the thesis more broadly. The second chart, which has data from 20-21, 21-22, and 22-23 does show a substantial rise in fail rates on various exams. However the first chart, which has 22-23 and 23-24 data seems to show an increase in pass rates, in some cases quite a large one (Pediatrics 1A block goes from a > 50% fail rate to around 20%). The data also seems inconsistent between the two charts for the one year (22-23) on which they overlap. For example, the Pediatrics Block 1A failure rate in the first chart seems to be in excess of 50%, but the Pediatrics 1A block in the second chart seems to be < 20%. Similarly the failure rate for Family Medicine block 1B is in excess of 50% for the 22-23 year in the first chart, but is less than 30% for the same year and block in the second chart. Which number is correct?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
If they are not free to leave? Or say no?
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
I did not intend that to be about you, specifically, so let me apologize for that. As the to the specifics I admit considerable uncertainty. I know that what kinds of social behavior are considered shameful historically have been different than they are today but I have not made a study of them, it just seems to me this would be a norm worth changing.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
So how exactly are you going to enforce this rule?
The same way any other social norm is enforced? Shaming the people who violate it.
If there's a fixed contingent of women that wants to be "conquered" in this fashion, the more men you persuade to follow your compact, the more advantageous will it be for the marginal man to defect, as there will be droves of women waiting for someone who is, in their eyes, still enough of a man to pursue them.
Yes, as I mention in several other replies I'm aware it is a complex coordination problem. Still I think it is a thing worth doing.
Even if you posit that this preference that some/many women have is purely acquired and can be untaught, there will at least be a transitional period where you need to exercise tremendous amounts of coercion - which will, from the outside, look a lot like the "I consent - I consent - I don't" image macro, with the "don't" being an unpopular and unsuccessful man while the first two are popular and well-adjusted men and women - to stop male defectors.
"Ahh but you see, your social movement is doomed for I have already drawn myself as the chad and you as the soy!"
The most likely outcome is that any attempt at enforcement will look exactly like our present reality, where you only get to pick off defectors at the most awkward and unsuccessful fringe, who at the end of their efforts can not present a woman witness that says that she actually liked it, both of them understood consent was actually implicitly given and outsiders should stop creepily insinuating themselves.
My point is that I don't think it matters, and it is no defense, that the woman liked it. It is (or ought to be) bad to ignore a woman's "no" even if she wants you to in a symmetrical way to how it is wrong to enslave people even if the enslaved people like it.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
I don't know. I think social norms around the treatment of women, LGBT people, people of different races and lots of other groups were much worse in the past, including in my lifetime. We got here from there somehow.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
Playing hard to get is a filtering mechanism for a man's ability to stick with an effort despite initial failure or hardship. It's as simple as that. Phrased differently, "if I make it easy for him to come (that's an unintentional double entendre! hahaha, nice), it will also be easy for him to go...Therefore, I have to make it a little hard up front to test out if he's going to see it through"
I guess it depends on how specific we get on "playing hard to get." "Woman sometimes turns down date with a guy she would actually like to date to see how persistent he'll be" seems less objectionable to me, although comes with the obvious problem lots of women who don't want to date a guy are going to continue being pestered. "Woman sometimes says so no sex even though she wants it" seems like a much worse norm. Surely we can develop better norms for women to filter men for a kind of stick-to-it-ive-ness than creating strategic ambiguity for rape.
We should, however, provide the social pressure to hold them accountable for crossing various milestones as well as general honesty with partners.
I am unclear on what it means to "hold them accountable for crossing various milestones." I agree that women should be more honest with partners, that was my whole point!
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
I get it. I mentioned in another reply about the complexities of the coordination problem. That's why it's hard! The individual incentives are the other way!
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
Are non-monogamous societies somehow less downstream of biology than monogamous societies? Observationally dating norms have been very different historically than they are today and can be quite different in different geographical locations even today. It thus seems hard, to me, to argue that some set of dating norms common in the anglosphere are some biological inevitability.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
I am skeptical that the particular facts of women playing hard to get are downwind of biology.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
5d ago
On the one hand, I don't doubt it is individually sucky to break away from social norms like this. On the other hand, if we all decide to continue as if these are the rules then they remain the rules. Society does not spontaneously re-order due to nobody doing anything. It is a difficult collective action and coordination problem.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
6d ago
Fair enough, that's certainly a possible outcome. I am skeptical that it is worse than the alternative. Especially since I think there's an equilibrium that's better for both.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
6d ago
For sure. I definitely don't intend to place all the onus to change on men. It's a cultural change that includes changing behaviors by both sexes.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
6d ago
Yes, women playing coy is definitely a problem. Maybe this is just me but I think the better option is just... not having sex with women who do that! They can either learn to ask for what they want or no one should have sex with them. Errors in the direction of "some people miss sex they could have had" seem much better than errors in the other direction.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
6d ago
I enjoyed the article. I think I'm one contributing factor here is what Scott identified over a decade ago in should you reverse any advice you hear. People in either sex positive or purity cultures are probably in thick information bubbles that take those positions to pathological extremes. This is probably even worse today than when Scott's article was written.
I suspect a lot of people operating in an enthusiastic consent framework would agree with the author that the circumstances she describes some of her friends having sex under were problematic. There's a reason those articles have the disclaimers they do. I suspect they would do so using a language of consent, that various kinds of pressure had rendered the sex in question not really consensual. The problem with this angle is that it turns what is supposed to be a simple and intuitive concept into one that hides a lot of complexity and nuance.
From my perspective it seems like there are two key issues. Firstly, women feel a social and interpersonal pressure to have sex they don't want. Like they need a good reason not to have sex with someone. This is totally backwards to how it ought to work. You do not need any reason to refrain from sex with someone beyond "I don't want to." "No" is a complete sentence, as they say. Related to the first, many men apparently feel no compulsion to respect that "no." Badgering women into having sex with you after they've said no is apparently fine in some people's minds. So the question, then, is how we create the social conditions so that women feel empowered to give that "no" and men feel compelled to respect it.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
9d ago
Edit- My list got butchered. Trying to fix it, but it seems the method I chose of writing multiple paragraphs after a question is disfavored.
You'll lose the indentation for numbered lists but you can at least keep the numbers you want by escaping the "." after the number like this: "2\." Ex:
1.
2.
3.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
No, humans have wanted forever. Another key ingredient is technological development. Specifically labor saving devices that reduce the number of hours required to maintain a household and make women more productive outside the home.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
True, I was thinking marginally so the first would be much higher. I am highly skeptical women would only sleep with the top 5% of men.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
We have about 74M women that are the denominator for our TFR calculation. According to the World Bank the United States has a TFR of 1.7. That means if all those 74M women had 0.5 babies (or half of them had 1 baby) that would raise US TFR by 0.5 to 2.2 (woops, I said 2.3). I assumed we'd pay each of these women the US median income as a stand in for knowing their actual income distribution. So the cost is 74,000,0000.540,480=1,497,760,000,000.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
I think people concerned about TFR often advocate it as a mode of social organization and I had received some other replies downthread suggesting it was the way we ought to be going to boost TFR. So, mostly people here I think.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
I agree that the opportunity costs are much lower if women work while also raising kids but I've been operating on the assumption people want women to become full time homemakers, which I think is much more disruptive. I do not have any kids of my own but your experience makes sense to me. I'm under the impression there are a lot of up-front cost for kid 1 that can probably be re-used for subsequent kids (toys, clothes, etc).
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
10d ago
The problem with this formulation is that Y isn't banned unless done as part of X. In this case, what's illegal is not the wearing of a mask, it's wearing a mask to conceal one's identity.
I'm not sure I agree. I don't read any intent requirement in the text of 14-12.7. It seems like what's banned is "being in public wearing anything that could conceal your identity." Your intent about concealing your identity doesn't enter into it.
As to your examples I think it would be fair to say "they're banning standing around in front of the mall in a funny hat" or "they're banning beer in the park" but the firearm one is trickier.
Appreciate the correction, updated my post with the correct numbers.
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