Karmaze
1yr ago
I mean, that's not a surprise TBH. Like I said, I could do an in-depth analysis of the song, and its active rejection of the Male Gender Role as a romantic value and breaking the related patterns. (Note: Even though I think it's the best for me personally, because that's my personal aesthetic, at the same time, I don't think it's realistic at all)
Karmaze
5mo ago
Why does anybody have to be right?
That's what I don't get about the whole thing. I was trying to explain to this someone the other day, and it was like, I'm not actually defending GG here per se, unless you look at context as a a form of defense. But in reality, there was a LOT of crappiness that was coming from that anti-GG community, that IMO laid much of the cultural groundwork for modern Pop Progressive culture as I call it. Was it worse than the GG people themselves? I don't think that's a relevant question. I think the real answer is that online activism is just...well...crappy, or at least it has a tendency to be such.
Karmaze
1mo ago
FWIW this is more of a meta fight than anything else. And I mean, for me I always thought that eventually all the culture wars really settled into the "Who, Whom" question. Who creates the rules and on whom are they enforced. I think everything else falls away to the side next to that. Modern Online Progressivism falls particularly hard into that I think, being that the Oppressor/Oppressed dichotomy is stupid toxic to actually internalize/actualize, and I think everybody knows it. People focus on diversity and representation, but I don't actually think that's the issue...I think it serves more as a sort of MAGA hat, a visible symbol of personal politics, although certainly nowhere as clear. In fact, I would certainly say that I think people are oversensitive in that regard.
But that doesn't mean that the "Who, Whom" question isn't a problem.
The other thing I'll add on that, is that you're talking about in-game transactions...I'm going to make the argument that these things might not be as far unrelated as you think, for a couple of reasons. First, I think there's the issue of Moral License, which I think is real here, and essentially, that MOP culture is a Moral License factory. It has to be to prevent itself from self-destructing in a spiral of pain, self-destruction and shame. It has to believe itself is not part of that Patriarchal, White Supremacist, Colonialist society on an individual level. So...does this Moral License extend to kinda justifying exploitative business models?
But I think there's another thing. I do think there's an assumption that the Blue Ocean audiences being looked for are of a higher socioeconomic class. And I think there's a belief that they tend to be more monogamers, I.E. people more focused on a title or two rather than something much more broad. (My understanding/experience is the people who are upset about the double standards/hypocrisy in Progressive journalism tend to be more Polygamers, people who play a wide variety of gaming experiences...but that means that we don't spend as much on individual titles...although I'd argue there's a higher level of value sensitivity there as well) But more than that, I think they're fishing for the so-called whales. The people who will drop absurd amounts of money on a single game.
That's my take at least. I do think that this is a meta issue and it's a class issue, as across the board, entertainment and culture companies are looking to replace lower-status with higher-status audiences.
Edit: I just want to add one thing I've been thinking about this. One of the thing I'm seeing from the Progressive side, is that none of the critiques aimed at them make sense. I disagree entirely. I think raw anti-Progressivism is actually rational for some people. Not all people. But some. I think if you're more vulnerable to internalizing those models of power, or you think you lack the social cred to not be judged based on those models of power (and let's be honest, that's what's going on here by and large) it makes complete total sense why people would be straight-up reactionary against this modern Progressive culture. I actually wish there was a better alternative to be clear. But it kinda is what it is.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I raised the issue. It's something I believe about the whole thing...not that he never existed however.
I think it's fair to say that the way things shook out, there were essentially "two camps" in the atheism sphere after that. You had what became the Atheism+ Progressive camp, and you had what I'd call the "south of center" liberal/libertarian camp. I'm assuming there's not going to be many conservatives hanging around atheist conventions. Nothing personal against conservatives intended here. I just think there's so few it's hard to even say there's a camp.
The way Elevatorgate was used, I really do think, was to redirect power and influence away from the liberal/libertarian camp towards the Progressive camp. However, I strongly believe what makes the most sense is that "Elevatorguy" was actually from the Progressive side, not the Liberal/Libertarian side. Which of course, would look very poorly on that particular circle.
That's my take at least.
Karmaze
1yr ago
We should establish a norm that as a blanket rule advocacy groups should not be seen as actually representing the groups they claim to be doing advocacy for, but instead, their own personal interests first and foremost.
That's always been my take at least. And speaking as a liberal, I really do believe that doing this would dramatically reduce the amount of active bigotry that exists in the world. The activists and advocacy groups are creating their own boogiemen out of thin air, more or less.
They're the ones dreaming up the Stay-Puff Marshmellow Man in a Klan hat, and manifesting it into reality.
Karmaze
1mo ago
In reality, I think the touchpoint really comes down to 3 games, all of which did quite poorly, objectively. Saint's Row, Forsaken and Suicide Squad. I think 2 had technical issues (I thought the demo for Forsaken was decent), but I think all three, story wise, had issues in that they just came across as bad, tone-wise. I think that certain cultural tone simply doesn't have the wide appeal that the bigwigs think it has. Now, I think Suicide Squad the issues were more with the gameplay than the story, (people didn't want a shoot the purple glowing button live service game) but still. I do think it's a problem.
My own personal viewpoint is that it's larger than one consulting firm. And considering that Alan Wake 2, IMO was actually pretty good, and SBI DID consult on that, I do think the problem is somewhere else. Myself? I've given up on North American AAA. And yeah, Forsaken was Japanese developed, but they WANTED to be a North American game in so many ways.
I do think there's something wrong in the NA AAA space, and I do think the explosion of Progressive politics plays a role, but it's not a direct one, other than the moral license issues. I think it's just a narrow culture, much more narrow than it thinks it is, and that's the problem. Outside of NA, and I disagree, GTA 6 I think will probably be fine if it's still rooted in the nascent anti-Americanism, I think around the rest of the world, even Left/Progressive coded games are fine.
Karmaze
10mo ago
- Labor policies designed around maintaining a healthy work/life balance and encouraging participation in society. The whole "on-call 24/7" thing for low-wage workers simply isn't sustainable.
Karmaze
1yr ago
The claim is that wokeism was only able to rise so quickly and so broadly was due to the effects of atheism on the masses, not that they had the same origins/goals/motivations.
Yeah that's wrong. At least in my mind.
I think it rose quickly and broadly because it provides a high-dose method of being on the "right side of history" while minimizing actual cost for yourself and the people around you.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Certainly I agree with you.
My point is that I really do think it was the Atheism+ strand of the whole thing that "caught fire" and was broadly picked up. I don't think it was picked up directly from LJ, Tumblr or SRS so much, although certainly, and I specifically think it was SRS that was embraced by the A+ crowd...
Actually let me rephrase that. I think the FTB side of the whole A+ thing was heavily influenced by SRS, and the whole ironic cruelty thing. But there was also the A+ forums, (and the two didn't really get along) that was much more Tumblr influenced I think. (Honestly, the whole LiveJournal as radical thing missed me, so I can't really tell you much, the only things I ever read on there were Scott's journal pre-SSC and various Tales from Tech Support type stuff)
Anyway, I do think that largely it's that "ironic cruelty" that set the stage for what we see as woke culture today.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I mean, even look at something like child sex trafficking that so often flies off into other things. (And also misses very critical vectors at times). But this isn't to say completely discredit their work and what they're doing...although I share the same instinctual flinch. My guard is certainly up as well. But it's not something we should shift on a larger group, is my point. Their arguments should stand and fail on their own, without being reflective of people outside of those making those arguments. Maybe that's pollyannaish, as usual. But I do think it's a very real problem.
Maybe a better way of putting it is that the power that advocacy groups wield can be dangerous in their own right, and while it shouldn't discredit their argument, certainly it's a reason that we should be careful and wary about it.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Gender dysphoria, at least for me, is something that makes sense that it exists to a degree. I have compassion for people with it, and I think we should do what we can to best help them (within reason). My major concern about it, is something akin to what I think about body dysphoria....I'm worried about social pressure that might actually causes these various forms of dysphoria. And because of that, I'm not convinced that everybody with Gender dysphoria is best served by transitioning. Some people would be better served with understanding and dealing with those social and cultural pressures.
Karmaze
1mo ago
Certainly people talk about "Billionaires" all the time. But below that? Not so much. And yeah, sometimes you'll see it targeted specifically at certain (usually outgroup) people...but generally this isn't something that's challenged, outside of an extreme minority of targets. I don't think this has always been the case, or is always the case, but I think there's a lack of awareness that the socialism different people envision might not be the same thing. Some people might truly envision a prioritizing of the working class, while others see shifting power and control to the managerial/professional classes.
Karmaze
1mo ago
Yeah. I thought it was pretty good. Not great 'tho.
I would have cut the budget on that thing significantly 'tho. And I don't mean that as a critique per se. Just that I think they way overestimated the interest in such a game. Just to be clear, I think Control (their previous game) is a much better game overall.
One of the big complaints about the modern trends in gaming is the disappearance of the "AA" game. That sort of middle-ground between budget/indie and AAA. I think Alan Wake 2 should have been an AA game.
Karmaze
1yr ago
While the difference between those two definitions seems academical as the resulting status is pretty much the same, there is a meaningful difference in that it changes completely the direction you approach them from.
I think this is correct. That said, I understand why somebody might not be aware of that distinction.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Common? I don't know. But I think I'll go to my grave probably thinking that the best song from a f->m romantic perspective is Simple and Clean. Yes, the one from Kingdom Hearts.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0qxdwfxbONM
Honestly, I could do an in-depth analysis of the lyrics of this song, especially in terms of modern gender politics and relationships. (And what, this is like almost 20 years old at this point?) But my hand is busted so I don't feel like typing too much.
Karmaze
4mo ago
Gonna play a bit of devil's advocate on the subject. Not entirely, just a tad. Because I do think there's some reasonable concepts behind the core idea, that Canada's population needs to increase dramatically. Canada has a lot of open space. To be blunt. So I don't think it's unreasonable to think that over time Canada would be better off on the global stage with a significantly higher population. As well, it's a way to get around demographic surges among older people.
I actually think these are good points.
The problem is that the implementation has been awful. There's a number of problems.
The big one, is that I think that immigration programs needs to be controlled for skills (or desire skills). You need to maintain relatively healthy balances of your entire labor market to ensure that things don't go out of whack and you get shortages in one place or another.
The other side of that coin, is credentialism. That is, various licensing regimens doing their best to keep out outsiders in order to artificially boost wages. Then you put on top of that the role of post-secondary education itself, and their role in massively importing labor.
The end result is just tons of essentially low-skill labor and people locked into that role. Relatively few people are coming over to do construction work, and the barriers to entry for that are massive anyway. Truth be told, I have nothing against people coming over, taking high-end or relatively high-end courses and ending up with good jobs. I don't think that's where the problem is. The problem really is down the line.
There's another part of the problem as well, and that's geographic distribution. Yes, Canada has a LOT of room. We can't have an overwhelming % of people living in a few large cities. I'd argue we need the will and the ability to "upshift" smaller cities into larger ones. Or maybe even building a city from scratch. We can't just keep on dumping people into the Toronto area.
If we want to do the whole 100 million thing (that's the goal), there's going to need to be a plan to address all those things I mentioned above. And as it stands right now, there's absolutely not.
Karmaze
1yr ago
I'd like to discuss the best ideas my political opposition has, but I'm increasingly concerned that "signal boost liars" is the best idea my political opposition has--or, if not their best idea, maybe just their most pragmatically effective.
This is going to sound harsh, but I do think it's accurate, in that I think there always has been a sense that the best argument actually is "We will have the power". You know...that whole "Right Side of History" thing? And sometimes that "will" in the first phrase gets lost, so it's just "We have the power". And with that comes all sorts of Moral License and all that. In reality, we're talking pure Toxoplasma of Rage.
I really am very progressive myself, as well as liberal. Small-p. But I do think the full-throated embrace and exploitation of post-modernism is worrying for a whole host of reasons. Again, I'm not even opposed to post-modernism in a reflective, sober perspective. But what we're seeing here is something more like a search for power. The further you can go, and get away with if not outright cheered and supported the more pressure it puts on people to adopt your views/join your group.
Note, this applies to parts of the right as well, I think.
Karmaze
1mo ago
See, to me this feels odd because it leaves out one crucial point. People being primarily motivated by social status. It's not, why should I bother to save if government money is coming in the future? It's why should I bother to save if I'm going to take a significant hit to my social status and image today? Lockdown and stimulus basically served as a sort of supercharger for this competition. People are not going to like the solution however, which is essentially that the middle class/upper middle class has too much discernable income, and probably should be taxed significantly more.
Karmaze
1mo ago
Could you spell out how that works, because I don't necessarily see the straight logic there -- my guess is that progressivism is orthogonal to monogamers/polygamers.
At least what I said is my experience. I feel like people who play a wide variety of games simply are not going to waste the resources picking up expensive DLC/Microtransactions? For what you could pay getting an outfit for your Diablo 4 character (which is stupid expensive), there's a lot of options out there for great experiences you could get. There's simply more competition for the gaming dollar, I think.
But the number of people who can quickly scan a character roster for skin color or can develop an opinion about the sexual orientation of NPC romance options is much higher. It might just be bike-shedding.
I think also, people who are watching a large number of games see trends, even if they're there or not. And one of the big trends people see right now is downplaying the attractiveness of female characters in a way they are NOT doing for male characters. And of course, people tie that (not necessarily incorrectly) into various Progressive theories and models, and you get what you get.
Karmaze
10mo ago
My personal take on this is we're dealing with several similar looking but substantially different phenomenon. I do think that there are actual deep-rooted innate brain-body mismatches, and transition is certainly an option those people should have.
But I agree with the OP largely here was well. I simply can't see the current in-vogue model of gender, politics and personality traits being healthy. Because I don't believe it is at all. And I do think it can trigger something that approaches and looks like gender dysphoria....but it also probably could be treated with therapy that acknowledged these pressures in the first place. But it's getting people to acknowledge these pressures that's the tricky bit. It breaks Kayfabe hard.
Karmaze
1yr ago
To be frank, I think Gamergate was the "Dirty Bomb" that blew this model/culture of Critical Theory into the world. Or at least the reaction to such. It existed, to a degree, before that, but that's when I think it became fairly well known. So, when I'm talking about the culture of Postmodernism/Critical models of power, I do think that begins in 2015 or so. Maybe some people might look back to what happened to Operation Wall Street and take that into account..and they're not incorrect there to be clear, but I don't think support for that hit any sort of influential mass until the mantle was taken up by parts of the media/activist base, because it was being actively challenged for its own particular power/influence dynamics. Critical theory/Postmodernism is an easy "antidote" to those criticisms.
That's my opinion at least. And I think it's fairly obvious that Trans status as a mainstream issue came after that point.
But yeah, I think there's a reason that some people/communities hold on to Postmodernism/Critical Theory like a life vest that if they release they're going to fall down into the depths. And let me be clear...I don't think that's entirely wrong. I do think there's a legitimate self-interest at play here, even if frankly on the other hand I couldn't care less about said self-interest.
Karmaze
1yr ago
Yeah, this is much more a problem with crypto than it is anything involving EA or Rationalism.
I'll say it again, as it stands right now, it's a Ponzi scheme, more or less, hoping that eventually something will be mainstreamed into broad, basically universal usage. I'm not saying that as a moral criticism, FWIW, I'm sure the people who engage in it believe that some day it'll actually get there. But until that day, it really is just a house of cards waiting to collapse.
The best way I've heard to frame it is Pluralist vs. Authoritarian. South of Center vs. North of Center is the other way I'd put the same thing...it's entirely different than left vs. right. Generally speaking, this place is mostly South of Center, with a few North of Center people around.
But yeah, I largely agree with you, and I'm against the anti-Pluralism that's floating around, left center and right. That's largely because I'm a policy wonk, and I think the details matter and I think because of that it's essential that we can actually discuss and disagree about the issues, and not break everything down into a power-based binary.
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