Meyerlemon
1mo ago
People are increasingly realizing they cannot sit in China and keep making money without major disruptions. See Iran, Netherlands (Nexperia), Venezuela, and Panama for example. The inertia is strong (the propaganda of China as peaceful and non-expansionist runs deep but it’s delusional, Chinese empires have historically expanded to the maximum extent permitted by technology, chiefly the military technology and information technology required to maintain hierarchical bureaucracy). I doubt the non-expansionism can stay mainstream for much longer as the country’s power keeps growing.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
You’re more online than me :( honestly they all look the same after the makeup…
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Yes, the Qinling-huaihe line is the traditional north-south boundary. It roughly matches the 800mm isohyet and divides China into the more arid, wheat-based north and the more humid, rice-based south. You probably know this already.
On the boundary question: you’re right that the Huai has historically served as the natural border between eastern Jin and the northern states (and roughly the boundary through most of 南北朝), and later between Jurchen Jin and Song. But the boundary kept shifting throughout the three kingdoms and the northern and southern dynasties. Sun Wu mostly held the Yangtze as their line against Wei, and by the end of Liang the southern dynasty had retreated to the Yangtze, where it stayed until Sui. Throughout 魏晋南北朝 the frontier generally is somewhere between the yellow river and the Yangtze, with the Huai as the midpoint and a major river for fortification. 所谓守江必守淮. I’m not sure why the Yangtze as a border is more fragile than the Huai though, so if you know that I’d love to hear.
For some reason in my own mental map I still place the boundary at the Yangtze. I know cities like Hefei and Yangzhou are solidly southern, but for some reason I still feel like the line should be drawn there. Apparently not just modern Chinese like me, Book of Southern Qi:
魏主甚重齐人，亲与谈论。顾谓群臣曰：“江南多好臣。“侍臣李元凯对曰：“江南多好臣，岁一易主。江北无好臣，而百年一主。”
They seem to think they’re “江北” and the southern Qi “江南”. Not exactly matching the map.
Maybe the Yangtze is just a stronger mental image than the Huai, and that was already true before the Huai ceased to be a meaningful independent river after it merged with the yellow river 夺淮入海.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
So when Chinese say "southerners", are they referring to everyone from Shanghai to Hainan to Sichuan?
Yes and no I guess? In my mind (I'm from the north but my ancestors lived in Zhejiang for millennium) southerners means people who live within 300km of Nanjing, basically those in Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Shanghai, Anhui. But I asked my wife and for her it means anyone who lives south of the Yangtze.
If that's the case, are there real unifying cultural reasons or is this more of a definition by exclusion on the part of northerners to group "everyone that isn't us"?
I think there are cultural reasons. Northern China was under nomadic rule for longer, and cultural customs are similar enough there although not entirely homogeneous. Southern China was mostly under Han Chinese rule, and is more culturally diverse (Southerners from Shanghai, Guangzhou or Chengdu are meaningfully different than northerners from Beijing and Shenyang, at least in my mind).
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
What's wrong with the term Chinaman? I know we don't say 'Mexicoman' or whatever, but we have lots of 'China buffet' and no 'Mexico restaurant', so it's at least consistent.
Honestly I don't know. It seems innocuous, but media and my liberal friends keep telling me it's not a good thing to be called Chinaman. Maybe for historical reasons but I'm not building railways and we have our country in order again, so why do I care. Granted they're quite sensitive with words and I personally don't mind harmless racism; it's endearing sometimes. I've encountered some, but at least from what I observed on my Transamerica trip, middle Americans are generally friendly and trustworthy people if a bit blunt, not the racist hillbillies my liberal circle usually insinuates through their jokes and chit chats. But what do I know? I'm not going to disagree with them on English.
I kind of assume men looking for Asian porn specifically want women who look more... stereotypically Asiatic. It's probably a fetish.
I honestly don't think that look is stereotypically Chinese. Mongolians yes, Chinese northerners maybe but not really. At least not the non-malnourished Chinese.
Otherwise why would they look for Asian porn? White women are more attractive(and Chinese beauty standards certainly seem to gesture in that direction).
Certainly white beauty standards spread to all corners of the world where there are things that can be called civilization. I'm sure our beauty standards are influenced to some extent, but as you noticed the slim anorexic neotenous look is not something Americans exported to us. You don't prefer that look anyway.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Thank you. Obviously it’s not everybody, but I have a general feeling that the Japanese know very little about China, even less than your typical American, to a point I find genuinely irritating.
Part of it is the lack of cultural export, and the perception of us being (not necessarily incorrect) low class. Like their typical Chinese girl in anime still have that twin hair buns or wear Qipao and good at Kongfu or whatever, some century old stereotypes. Cultural inertia is another piece. But sometimes they're just oblivious enough to, for example, think obviously Chinese gacha games are made by Japanese companies. Really? Like freaking Arknights or whatever has a whole storyline built around Chinese-flavored characters and New Year events. It's right there. I mean they have people who know us really well, the old 漢學家 but I guess they’re on their way out.
Re the buxom women, I feel like they somehow associate bustiness with promiscuity (not sure, that’s a feeling through second hand cultural exposure), and it’s sad those models ended up where they are.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
That’s because when the Chinese empire divides (usually along the Yangtze River) the seats of major southern successor states are usually in the Yangtze Delta, almost never in the Pearl River Delta (except for Sun Yat-sen’s brief governance from Guangzhou, which reflect the shift of gravity within China in the late imperial era until now). The “southern dynasties” almost invariably choose to rule from Nanjing or Hangzhou. It’s customary to call that part of China “the south”, meaning mostly the region south of Yangtze.
Cantonese and Hokkien are more clannish and, yes, pretty easy to distinguish. But I do think northerners and the “southerners” in the Yangtze Delta are also easily distinguishable, from the way they look or accent or mannerism. One of those in-group sensitivity things I guess.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Maybe they do, maybe they don’t. Can’t tell either way, and you should know better than I do. Or not. I certainly don’t interact with enough Americans to say anything.
You have weird conceptions of China, being one of the only people who refer to us as chinaman on this website (a bit old fashioned, and if you don’t mean ill I don’t really mind). Maybe it’s due to the lack of interaction, which I understand.
I don’t think our people are physically smaller than yours, and judging by how latinized Americans are and will be, its surely favoring us.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Well I’m not sure if you’re good at estimating Chinese women’s age (I’m not with western women). I do think being voluptuous is nice, but that’s mostly aesthetics, and people are into all kinds of weird shit anyway.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
I think northerners tend to prefer people who are taller and more robust. Southerners from Shanghai, Zhejiang, and Jiangsu also have noticeably different tastes from Cantonese. They favor the “小家碧玉” type, smaller, more delicate, with a neotenous look, while Cantonese tend to prefer the “miss hongkong” style like my example 4 and 6.
Beauty standards across the country are a lot less diverse now than they were maybe 20 or 10 years ago to many’s dismay, probably because of social media. Now everyone like neotenous faces and slim figures. Southern cultural hegemony and its consequences. It’s a familiar pattern in China with northern political/military dominance paired with southern cultural take over.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
It’s shocking when I realized that westerners do like women we consider hideous, with high cheek bones and those eyes. I thought that’s some sort of humiliation ritual until I found out that they’re somewhat consistent on pornhub.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
She’s pretty, but I think she’s polished her look to be more appealing to Western audiences. Same with Zhang Ziyi.
What about the Japanese? Do they care for Chinese actresses? I feel like their tastes might overlap, but not be exactly the same. I know some Taiwanese actresses were or are popular.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
I do think our men and women look more alike than Westerners. Gender swapping has been a common plot line in Chinese novels and shows, going back more than a thousand years. The story of Mulan for example dates to around 400 AD and involves a woman serving in the army masquerading as a man.
She told me that, back home, the beauty standard is for women to be exceptionally thin and flat-chested, to the point that her classmates in secondary school teased and mocked her for her comparatively big boobs.
God knows how much I hate that trend. I don’t understand why some Chinese men like that candlestick woman look. They’re already borderline anorexic, and still somehow “fat”? Screw that.
Oh well, I guess selection pressure will take care of their obsession with small pelvises and lack of breast milk…
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Different beauty standards strikes again. All three persons you listed…are solidly 3 in China.
Is there a website or something that lets Chinese/other EAsian and Americans/westerners score woman and man of different ethnicities? Fascinating..
I have a classmate who for many years has been considered by me a 2, basically a female but not a woman if I want to be mean (actually the moment I realized that I might be a school bully is when I remembered many years later how mean I was to her) and has never hooked up with anyone in China. Went to Germany and found a dude who looks like a Nazi poster boy. Beauty is in the eyes of beholder indeed.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
In the context of your country pursuing a costly and unpopular war in the Middle East AGAIN, threatening to destroy a civilization, doing flip-flops, wrecking the world economy, and threatening your own allies, I don’t understand what all this hand-wringing about China “winning them no friends” is about. Go find a mirror or something.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
My understanding is that the relationship between China and Myanmar is a bit complex. The Chinese government is somewhat supportive of the junta, invited the head to victory day military parade but refuse to call him leader of the country, etc etc. The junta in return helped catching A couple of gangsters and drug lords annd sent to China. And china sold weapons to the junta. But the northern separatists (kokang) are ethnic Chinese and was a splinter group of the indochina communist party, and had always received support from the Chinese. We’ve been funding both sides, a time honored tradition like how we sold weapons to GCC while buying sanctioned oil from Iran.
I’m not sure if nobody cared about “genocide” in Myanmar. Aung San suu kyi got her Nobel stripped. Some do care but they’re not in charge of their own country now.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Peaceful reunification has always been plan A. The official line has always been “we pursue peaceful reunification with maximum effort but never rule out the use of force” or something along those lines. The Communist Party has always talked with the Taiwanese KMT (Kuomintang, lit. Nationalist Party, the party that was defeated by the Communists and retreated to Taiwan) since Chiang Junior’s era about peaceful reunification. Xi met with then-Taiwanese president and KMT chairman Ma Ying-jeou in Singapore in 2015 and met again with KMT chairwoman Cheng Li-wun just a few days ago, which should be a step in the right direction. I think it’s one of the biggest happenings for cross-strait relations lately, but few seem to have heard of it in the West, partly because the other strait took their interest. Partly because Chinese positions on Taiwan was not imo rightly represented in western media, and the fact you think boots on the ground is plan A is pretty telling.
Also, PLA military advantage over Taiwan is a relatively recent development. Before the 2010s, the PLA navy and air force were weak, and their only edge against Taiwan was the PLA Rocket Force, which as you can see right now in Iran cannot force a complete defeat without boots on the ground.
I think it would be obviously stupid and tremendously tragic to do an Ukraine on Taiwan. I don’t want rockets destroying their (in my mind, our) civil infrastructure. I don’t want to destroy our cultural artifacts, and most importantly I don’t want to kill my own people, even if they don’t recognize themselves as my own people, which I think is something that could be changed without the use of force. They are 96% Han Chinese after all. There might be good reasons to have to do all of the above (the anti-secession law in China outlined a few things, including Taiwanese acquiring nukes) but it’s by no means plan A. I hope the KMT wins the next election (although I think it’s rather unlikely), and the temperature cools down a bit.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
I recommend you use the word “purged” to describe that situation. It’s the perfect Russell’s conjugation case. I fired my chief of staff, you kicked out your political commissar, he purged his deputy general.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Neither President Harris nor President Trump means business. President Obama, who deployed THAAD in South Korea in 2016; President Bush, who sent planes to crash with a Chinese jet in the South China Sea in 2001; and President Clinton, who sent the seventh fleet to Taiwan during the third Taiwan strait crisis and bombed Chinese embassy in Belgrade in 1999, they mean business.
You're too consumed by the American culture war to realize the Chinese leadership doesn't care much about what Milley said. No one in Beijing expects Americans to be soft-hearted regardless of what you say. It matters what you do. And of course removing assets from East Asia to supply the Iran missions (especially considering how little damage Iranian missiles have made) means less business than the other way around. And of course appointing DEI hires or reverse DEI hires in the military means less business too.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Chinese patriots are trying to brainstorm some ways of shooting American top tier wonder weapons.
First of all the dude only has 100k followers which is nothing in China. Secondly he made that video because “shooting a plane” is a pun for fapping in Chinese. I’m picturing him transferring our precious masturbating techniques to Iranians. On onlyfans maybe?
Incidentally the PLA published a “how to shoot a plane” booklet during the Korean War. But I thought we had a population boom back when? Not when you waste your precious seeds right?
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
The PLARF is its own branch for good reasons, reflecting the PLA doctrine to some degree annd also as a signal of how eagerly pursued ballistic missiles are. There’s a long history where China was “unable to produce a capable, modern navy or air force”, as recently as two or one decade ago, not too dissimilar to Iran, and the PLARF is part of why the Politburo could sleep well. Mostly because of the ICBMs of course, which you didn’t count here, but still.
I also think the PLA can chew a lot of gum without straining the economy or industrial base at all, unlike a heavily sanctioned economy that can barely provide freshwater to its capital.
In any case, I think it’s intriguing why the DoD estimate is so small. Israelis hype up Iranian stockpiles while DoD downplays Chinese capabilities. What gives? Few are serious about the risk of a real conflict, I’m afraid.
Meyerlemon
1mo ago
Guess we need Iraqi voices here. I’m from a country that has the second (trending up) worst case of main character syndrome in the world, so what do I know about their suffering. I think I’ve been a bit reflexively dismissive of these cartoonishly evil portrayals of autocrats, since that hasn’t really been my experience with China for the most part. But I guess autocrats aren’t all the same.
Dwarkesh Patel interviews Jensen Huang.
I'm no tech expert, and I'm pretty much a single-issue poster on China here, so I pay attention only from the 57th minute. It's worth a listen.
Here's my interpretation of the case laid out by Dwarkesh, although he didn't spell it all out. Some in the US, especially the Silicon Valley tech bros (exactly the kind of attitude Dwarkesh puts on display, and also Dario Amodei and his cult followers, and some here), believe that in the brief window before we hit the technological singularity, America can and will ride its computing power advantage to total dominance over AI and, by extension, the future of humanity. Under this logic, any computing power exported to China during this window is a direct blow to American national interests. The goal is very focused: sprint past the finish line, and everything else will sort itself out afterward, China included. If you want to solve the energy crisis? Invest in AI. If you want to end world hunger? Invest in AI. If you want to make sure the yellow vermin stay in their place? Invest in AI, told you already.
But 1) how far away that singularity actually is remains unclear (I'm not sure, again I am no expert on AI or anything this forum is familiar with, so feel free to lay out your thoughts on why the tech singularity is in sight). 2) US-China competition is a long game. Both countries are formidable, and in different ways. Both countries largest threat is from the inside, not the outside. There is no silver bullet that delivers a knockout blow. It's naive to think that restrictions on computing power, rare earths, or the like can permanently lock the other side out. What it will for sure do is generate animosity and bellicosity, with intensity up to a scale never seen before on this planet. This is probably partly why rare earth controls, effective as they are, haven't been deployed on a permanent basis. 3) There is a profound deficit of goodwill between the US and China, and that poses an enormous security risk to both nations and the world at large. This risk is far more real than the doomsday anxieties peddled by those types who love to brand themselves as "effective altruism" advocates, wringing their hands over alignment and the specter of a superintelligent AI annihilating the world. Export controls and measures of that sort are therefore much harm and dubious gain. At their core, they reflect a desire by certain people to take a shortcut, convinced that this one move alone can defeat China and "secure the light cone." I think this is pure fantasy, likely just another manifestation of a weird complex.
Which brings me to something more personal, because I realize I can't talk about this purely in the abstract. I love my country (contrary to what some seem to believe, people in China do love China, not all, but still. I can't believe this needs to be spelled out but apparently so). But I also like the Americans, in fact more so than most other peoples. I like power and I like a country that is strong and powerful, and I think that is a virtue in its own right. It demonstrates the vitality of the culture that country is founded on, which I think provide a lot for Chinese to learn from. I think for the most part the Americans I've met and know have treated me well, and respected me, and I think it is my duty to return that. But something has been puzzling me for some time, maybe because of my apparent inability to understand conflict. I do not understand why China and America have to be in conflict. I don't think the current situation is only any particular country's fault; it's complex and in many ways an extension of domestic issues; it's fueled by mutual misunderstanding which I think is somewhat lopsided given the lack of American in China but not vice versa; it's also because China for a long time until recently was not a functional society and ran by either corrupt (physically and/or spiritually) or megalomaniac people, and that itself creates all sorts of troubles that overflow beyond the border; it's also because of the growing anxiety among Americans due to societal rot, and the impulse to seek a simple explanation and target to avoid facing the real issues. But I do not understand it. To use what Xi said, the Pacific seems wide enough to contain two powers, and I think the years of collaboration and positive competition between China and the US have benefited both, tremendously so. I also believe that the right position on a wide variety of social and economic issues is somewhere in between those of China and the US, and that losing either one is like losing a mirror to reflect upon, which hastens the decadence of each. I can't think of "rational" reasons why this has to be confrontational.
Maybe this is all motivated reasoning, but all reasoning is motivated. Anyways, thoughts?
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