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joined 13 Sep 2022


User ID: 1172



0 followers   follows 0 users   joined 13 Sep 2022


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User ID: 1172


The role of the Red Army during the Warsaw Uprising remains controversial and is still disputed by historians.

Despite the fact, both of these objectives had been mostly secured by September. Yet the Soviet 47th Army did not move into Praga (Warsaw's suburbs) on the right bank of the Vistula, until 11 September (when the Uprising was basically over). In three days the Soviets quickly gained control of the suburb, a few hundred meters from the main battle on the other side of the river, as the resistance by the German 73rd Division collapsed quickly. Had the Soviets done this in early August, the crossing of the river would have been easier, as the Poles then held considerable stretches of the riverfront

On 1 August, the day of Uprising, the Soviet advance was halted by a direct order from the Kremlin.

All contemporary German sources assumed that the Soviets were trying to link up with the resistance, and they believed it was their defence that prevented the Soviet advance rather than a reluctance to advance on the part of the Soviets.[152] Nevertheless, as part of their strategy the Germans published propaganda accusing both the British and Soviets of abandoning the Poles.

Other explanations for Soviet conduct are possible. The Red Army geared for a major thrust into the Balkans through Romania in mid-August and a large proportion of Soviet resources was sent in that direction, while the offensive in Poland was put on hold.

Declassified documents from Soviet archives reveal that Stalin gave instructions to cut off the Warsaw resistance from any outside help. The urgent orders issued to the Red Army troops in Poland on 23 August 1944 stipulated that the Home Army units in Soviet-controlled areas should be prevented from reaching Warsaw and helping the Uprising, their members apprehended and disarmed.

mainstream and sane as holocaust revisionism

Since when it is mainstream or sane or fact based?

OK, with Khruschev and Gorbachev I have no problem to have them described this way.

Is rdrama site actually used while looking like this by normal users?

With idiotic contentless images taking 90% of space, sometimes floating over text?

I thought that it is some attempt to filter out people unable to disable this using a hidden settings.

USSR sabotaging efforts to supply uprising was more clear cut (some resupply missions were flown from Italy). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_airlift

denied flyover rights from their Soviet allies, who shot at them when the planes entered Soviet airspace (...) The airlift was further hampered by the Soviet Union not allowing Western Allies the use of its airfields for several weeks

Red Army was waiting on other side of river Wisła.

Also, USSR sabotaged efforts to supply uprising (some resupply missions were flown from Italy). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_airlift

denied flyover rights from their Soviet allies, who shot at them when the planes entered Soviet airspace (...) The airlift was further hampered by the Soviet Union not allowing Western Allies the use of its airfields for several weeks

Maybe they had some excuse to avoid helping, maybe they were truly unable. But in cases where they were able to help they deliberately sabotaged things.

Putin and Russian government denies existence of Ukrainians as nation or ethnicity and spend this year a massive effort to destroy Ukraine as an independent state.

I was thinking more along the lines of "You do know that you were only ever going to escape Soviet occupation if Nazi Germany prevails, don't you?"

See https://www.themotte.org/post/57/on-the-destruction-of-the-soviet/4625?context=8#context

One might use a following analogy: imagine that a woman is being raped by some guy, then another guy barges in, violently throws off the rapist, and then proceeds to rape the woman himself. What do we call the second guy? We call them a rapist. What if the first guy was planning to rape and murder the woman? We still call the second guy a rapist.

Also, one may create (very unlikely) alternative scenarios like USA proceeding to destroy USSR. Or USSR collapsing after WW II. Or meteor dropping on Moscow. Or USSR being less evil.

Speaking of glorified imperialism. Here’s the case of Britain:

If I would be living in India and there would be a monument celebrating how Britain colonised India, I would also support its removal.

If I would be British I would not complain about such removal.

I do believe in their good will and incompetence

I do not believe in their good will in most cases. Many cared about own wealth and benefits and had no problem with harming others, up to murders on large scale. And Stalin was not unique: Beria, Nikolai Yezhov and many others.

Russia somehow makes even more money.

With "China and India get cheap gas" and inability to use Europe-focused pipelines, how it would happen?

Did people really want more LOTR?

Yes, for example myself. Though given apparent quality I am not bothering with this one.

Self-segregation of communities. This one has ongoing spiral into right-side witchery. Many left wing posters ended on forums with left-side death spiral.

No idea how to solve this.

assuming that Soviets could have avoided their excesses (presumably like other European states or US), but had chosen not to

Nope, not relevant for me at all.

Even if they would be unable to avoid that, then it still a good thing to destroy monuments glorifying their imperialism and colonialism and overall evilness.

If instead you could have attributed Soviet policies to other factors, partially beyond their control – like geopolitical prisoner-dilemma-like situations, or mere incompetence of the leaders – you wouldn’t denounce them.

I would.

1) "mere incompetence" is not an excuse - one of problems of USSR is that they destroyed better functioning societies in areas they occupied and replaced it by monstrous fuckup. Making incompetent idiots more likely at charge. See Mao for extreme case, where incompetence was responsible for deaths on scale that Nazi Germany reached by making it their main priority.

If someone destroyed existing system and proceeded to be incompetent then it makes first action worse. And is not an acceptable excuse. Especially if incompetence was predictable and predicted and forced on people.

2) if my family suffered then "geopolitical prisoner-dilemma-like situations" may be an explanation that maybe can be accepted by someone. But not by me, unless someone had really good reasons (USSR failed to have them). And anyway, even if that explanation made some sense then monuments celebrating them should still be demolished or turned into museum pieces. Long gone empires like Roman Empire or Ancient Egypt may get a special pass, but not states that are still a threat.

So where does that leave us?

Obelisk was destroyed now. It is not a coincidence, it is not like Latvians were analysing alternative histories for last decades.

It was destroyed for many reasons. Among them:

  • in protest against Russia trying to recreate USSR by invading other countries

  • to demonstrate that also in Latvia they will find no widespread support among local population

  • in celebration of Russia turning out to be less powerful than many expected

  • because costs of such destruction were already borne by them anyway (that is also why Poland has taken over some buildings illegally hold by Russian state in Warsaw - after delivery of 230+ tanks to Ukraine diplomatic relations were already bad, and it was clear that Russia is a clear enemy anyway)

  • Russia demonstrated anyway that diplomatic relations with them are not worth much (see Armenia right now)

  • government wanted to show to be doing something

  • it was monument of Russian imperialism and colonisation of that area

and so on. Alternative timelines were likely not considered at all by anyone who took the decision.