Pigeon
coo coo
No bio...
User ID: 237
So are you saying that you're in the outlier of outliers for having known multiple trans people IRL? This might be true, but "liars on the internet" is multiple orders of magnitude more common so you'll have to forgive me if I have doubt you're that special unicorn.
You'll have to take my word for it, but for various reasons including profession, social circle and upbringing I do know more trans people -- either professionally or otherwise -- than the modal person. I'm not even saying that it's impossible for a man to pass as a woman (and I in fact concede that women may well pass as men -- I can imagine at least one trans man who I've met who I think would've passed as a short and stubby guy if given androgens), but I think the rate of truly passing trans women is really very, very low, edge cases aside (e.g. vanishingly small number of truly passing trans women, small number of people who legitimately have a poor sense of sex differences, etc). I certainly don't know of one and I know upwards of five trans women (and a few more in passing both personally and professionally -- I once recommended Wandering Son to a trans person who hadn't heard of it and never met her again).
(edit: that said, now that I think about it, potentially the reason I'm able to recognise trans women is because I have seen more of them than normal. Perhaps I am not the modal observer either.)
Yeah, so you're even saying that there's overlap even when you aren't trying.
That isn't me "passing", though -- they recognised the error when they looked more closely. And I think for the majority of cases that is also what is happening to trans people getting clocked as women -- people don't look very closely when it's actually only in passing, +/- when they clock that something's not quite right they're too polite to say otherwise. I'm also honestly stumped by the idea that someone could have sex with a trans person and not realise, unless they've never had sex before. I doubt a trans man would be able to fool a natal woman either -- last I checked neopenises weren't very convincing at all.
I suppose this really depends on what it means to "pass". I would categorise someone as "passing" if under more-than-incidental observation someone still mistakes the trans person's natal sex. Under a looser definition of "pass" that might not apply. I imagine morbidly obese people might also have an easier time passing due to all the fat obscuring the frame. But there are still other non-visual tells...
I'm not even a conservative who's dead set on denying that trans people exist or something -- I have great sympathy for the transmedicalist sort of trans people, and if there was a button that magically transformed men into women (and women into men) I would be all for people to press that button if they really wanted to. I think that the greatest insult and harm that the tucutes and recent "trans activists" have done is to transmedicalist-trans people themselves. I can't speak for other people, but to my eyes it's not accurate that even a significant minority of natal men, even with great effort, can generally pass as natal women with current technology. It's a sad situation.
If you knew they were trans in person you were looking for features with confirmation bias
No, I clocked them as extremely obviously not natal women and then got confirmation in one way or another afterwards. What did you think I meant by “confirmed”?
Or hell just go look at some of the older Jerry Springer episodes about guys who didn't realize they fucked a trans woman and got upset after it was disclosed.
That seems absolutely nuts. How the hell does that happen? The texture of neovaginas is, like, not going to be anything close to a real one. Even just the lack of proper lubrication for one.
I’m sorry but your insistence that trans women are actually generally passing reads as massive cope to me. That some lizardman’s constant worth of interactions suggest otherwise is not relevant in this case -- I've been clocked offhand as a woman previously during a period of my life when I had long hair by people who weren't paying too much attention, and I was not trying to present as a woman and definitely wouldn't appear female to anyone actually looking.
Pigeon
coo coo
16d ago
I’ve definitely met and confirmed multiple trans women in person, and they do look different. Of course I can’t say that I’ve definitely clocked all the trans women I’ve seen, but it does seem like there’s a bit of discontinuity between how trans women, at least, look and how natal women look; it doesn’t seem like there’s a spectrum from not obvious at all to very obvious, especially if you look at someone in daily life rather than someone in curated photographs.
(Of course there could actually be a spectrum and my brain just pattern matches to one or the other so readily that it only seems discontinuous, but that is my experience. I don’t see people who “barely” pass.)
Trans men I’ve definitely seen one or two “real” examples (eg excluding ones with “they/their”, neopronouns or ones that feel like a man one day and a woman the next, only counting the ones going from one binary to the other and making an effort to actually pass), but I’m less sure I’m clocking all of them due to the sheer effect of testosterone. That said in my milieu I don’t really see many of either trans men or gender lunatics to begin with.
Pigeon
coo coo
16d ago
I admit to not following this at all, but surely as for all procedural changes like these there would be a grace period where people could get their licence changed?
Pigeon
coo coo
17d ago
I think this interpretation stretches credulity enormously. You don’t go out and picket over minor changes in procedure, even if it is annoying; you do so for perceived loss of privilege (the inability to use the Dr. prefix as a signifier).
Pigeon
coo coo
22d ago
I think this is really quite inaccurate, and frankly, quite disparaging and myopic.
For one, since I previously referenced 墨子 Mozi:
墨子卷十五號令
官府城下吏卒民家前後左右相傳保火火發自燔燔曼延燔人斷諸以眾彊凌弱少及彊姦人婦女以讙譁者皆斷
Mozi, Chapter 15, section on Orders and Commandments
Among the officials, officers, soldiers, and common people within the government offices and the city, those to the front, rear, left, and right are mutually responsible for reporting and preventing fires. If a fire breaks out due to one's own negligence, and it spreads to harm others, the responsible party shall be beheaded. For any who use their numbers to bully the few or the weak, who forcefully violate or rape women, or those who encourage such actions, all such offenders shall be beheaded.
We can see that rape is packaged as part of actions that harm others.
Aside from this, while rape (as 强姦/彊姦) is not often directly mentioned in Chinese annals except in legal settings, the euphemisms used are telling.
The most direct is 妻/妻略 - “to wickedly take [as if she was] a wife”; others include:
- 不敬 - “to show disrespect”
- 非禮 - “to fail to behave in accordance to ritual and manners”
- 弗賓 - “to fail to treat as a guest”
- 姦亂 - “anarchic/disorderly licentiousness”
- Etc.
Even in veiled form, these terms show disapproval of rape both as a personal affront to the woman as well as besmirching the honour of her husband or clan. Of course this is not quite the same idea as our liberal standards of rape, but it nevertheless is very far from the idea “that a woman is involved at all, let alone an unwilling one, is of no consequence”. And to this day, the term for molestation is 非禮.
Or you could go through eyewitness accounts of the Nanjing event for more details about how the Chinese reacted to the rape of their women. That works, too.
What makes your statement even more bizarre is that some Chinese cults that actually do have a strong proscription not just on rape, but on sex in general, sometimes were also the most sex-egalitarian; IIRC some millenarian cults (maybe some parts of the White Lotus societies?) worshipping Wusheng Laomu were like this, though I couldn’t find any sources in a hurry. Traditional Daoist thinking would both admit that 精 "essence" is lost in ejaculation, but that abstinence produced various maladies and infirmities, so caution and moderation would be most healthful.
Pigeon
coo coo
28d ago
An unconscious woman, however, is next level for "Are you done yet?"
With the caveat that this isn’t something I’ve actually experinced, I’m actually pretty sure this isn’t the case, because if the woman is unconscious there isn’t any pressure to finish.
Pigeon
coo coo
28d ago
As far as I can tell this is a uniquely Christian innovation.
I mean, the Chinese have evidence of this in writing even in pre-Imperial history; 墨子 discusses punishments for rape during the Warring States period, and various annals including 春秋左傳 and 詩經 describe rape in a decidedly disapproving manner. I'm sure other cultures would
This is, of course, in the background of a very different philosophical culture and climate than Christian Europe. For one, the Christian idea of sin is probably actually quite peculiar, which I suspect makes much of the difference in mental interpretation.
This is a truly bizarre take without more elaboration.
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