Spez1alEd
10mo ago
Apologies for the late reply. It's true of course that there are mixed-race people who pass as one side of their ancestry or another without controversy, but even in many trans-friendly spaces the notion that an unambiguously white man could become black or vice versa is very much not accepted. I think this indicates that for race at least people feel there is an essentialist component based on ancestry, just as many believe gender has an essentialist component based on sex, which is the sticking point.
I do agree that if people want to have surgery to look like another race or ethnicity, this should be allowed, but I wouldn't consider them to truly be of that ethnicity nor begrudge members of that ethnic group for not accepting them as such based on lack of ancestry or similar experiences, which I think is similar to the view many have on transgender issues, too. When you reject the need for sex as a component of gender, it can feel as if you're undermining a useful method of categorisation for distinguishing between materially different kinds of people, who have different needs based on that material distinction.
That said while I definitely believe private sex-segregated spaces should exist, I'm open to the idea that full medical transition may make it viable to segregate by gender instead in some cases, if the data shows it can mostly close the physical gaps between cis and trans people. Segregation is also based partly on cultural/psychological differences between men and women, though, and anecdotally it does appear as if many transwomen retain some masculine cultural/psychological traits. To be clear I don't think transwomen are any more perverted compared to cis men or anything like that, possibly less due to oestrogen's effect, but if they retain aspects of male sexuality and the male gaze you can see how women might object to that in changing rooms and the like.
For what it's worth I think the more moderate trans agenda you mention was one society was broadly on board with, but whatever your personal views we're obviously past that paradigm now, which has spurred a backlash. From what I recall about a decade ago there was a bit more casual transphobia, i.e. people would casually refer to transwomen as men, but many people didn't care a great deal about the issue and were willing to be basically tolerant. I don't know if you'd consider that better or worse than what we have today, with greater trans visibility alongside a larger culture war around the issue.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
While I'm sure there are progressives who contradict themselves by making prison rape jokes, I don't think it's something sanctioned by progressive orthodoxy. They generally condemn any rape jokes, and I think they would further condemn jokes about men being raped in prison on the grounds that the jokes are misogynistic (because part of the punchline is that the man is having his masculinity undermined, which implicitly suggests that men must be masculine and it's shameful for them to be effeminate.)
Spez1alEd
7mo ago
I wasn't accusing you of saying all atrocities are committed by non-whites. Anyway, fair, there is a distinction in how white/Western countries respond to accusations of having committed atrocities and how non-white/Western countries do, whether that be due to the influence of the Enlightenment or Christianity or post-WWII guilt or whatever it may be, and it does have important implications for culture and politics.
I still think the distinction isn't a result of non-whites not feeling guilty over their actions, though, it's just a different and more covert way of dealing with guilt. Rather than accept the framing of these actions as evil and apologise, sometimes to the point of exaggerating the harm or self-flagellating, non-white countries engage in downplaying and denials, and the fact they do this indicates they do feel their actions are difficult to morally defend. If Japan for example said the Rape of Nanjing did happen and comfort women were coerced and abused, just the way Western or Chinese historians claim, but that it was either good or at least justified in service to the larger national wartime goals, this would indicate a genuine lack of guilt and shame.
When they instead deflect and say Nanjing was exaggerated, or the atrocities weren't authorised, and anyway the other armies were just as bad, and the comfort women were mostly just normal prostitutes, it shows they know they can't convincingly claim those events as described by mainstream historians were morally acceptable, so they have to twist and distort the facts. Unless it were the case that the Japanese accounts were actually more accurate, I suppose.
Spez1alEd
1yr ago
If you care about the weak is it not better to do all you can to strengthen them, rather than to accommodate their weakness and encourage them to value it and make it part of their identity? Down that road lie self-destructive ideas like fat acceptance, or the opposition of some deaf people to a cure for their condition. Such ideas don't represent genuine compassion for those who are struggling but seek to keep them disempowered and dependent, while simultaneously assuaging the guilt of those stronger than them.
To be honest I'm sceptical that it's ever a good idea to rely on the goodwill of the strong to protect the weak. Following the Black Death in Europe, the resulting labour shortage left the remaining workers in a far better negotiating position than they had been in before, and using their additional leverage they were able to force the hand of their lords to grant them better conditions and relax some of the restrictions they'd had imposed on them as part of serfdom. This never would've occurred had their position not been strengthened (even if through an act of God rather than cultivation of personal virtue, in this case), no matter how many clerics might've appealed to the lords' sense of Christian charity.
I think it's the same today, relying on the benevolence of those in power is simply not a reliable way to win concessions compared to using leverage to force their hand. Of course, in some cases we can't strengthen people and so accommodating them is all we can do, but it should always be our second option after seeking to empower them.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
It might be petty but honestly I've always found his 'how do you do fellow zoomers' shtick kinda cringe. The thing where he pretends to be down with the kids and all their epic dank maymays, y'know? For some people maybe that's enough to tip the scales against him. Then of course there's just the fact he's the richest man on Earth, people might feel he's mishandled Twitter or some of his other ventures, that moment he called a guy who rescued a bunch of trapped kids a paedophile for no good reason, maybe other stuff I haven't heard of. Honestly I'm a bit confused by the notion that if you're anti-woke you apparently have to like Musk.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
We don't love them because they are inept.
I'm not sure where I gave the impression I believed that. Maybe it sounded as if I was saying the ineptness of children was the only reason they're not punished as harshly as adults? Of course adults have instinctual feelings of love and protectiveness towards kids independent of their belief in the children's ineptness, and those are part of it too, but much of the argument against trying them as adults centres on their inability to understand the full consequences of their actions. So, you know, it's both - the "benevolent ageism" in this case stems both from love of children and knowledge of their inferior faculties.
Spez1alEd
6mo ago
Does Twitter even really lean right? Every left-leaning tweet I see gets an order of magnitude more likes than any right-leaning counterpart. People have claimed these are botted likes but that can't be the case for all of them.
Spez1alEd
10mo ago
I look like a duck, I quack like a duck, why not just call me a duck?
If we were to follow this logic to its ultimate conclusion, seemingly it would mean we should consider anyone who mimics the outward appearance and behavioural standards of a group to be a part of that group. Is that something you'd endorse?
Correct me if I'm wrong though, but mainstream progressives don't appear to accept this line of argument in regards to any social construct besides gender. When white college professors are exposed as having falsely claimed to be Amerindian despite lacking any Native DNA or cultural background, they're typically considered to have committed a grave act of cultural appropriation and transgressed against a marginalised group, even though evidently they quacked and looked enough like a duck to convincingly pass as one for several years in some cases.
If we were to apply the current trans self-ID paradigm to the situation, they needn't even have done that; just claiming to be Native should have been enough for them to be considered valid, even if they made no changes to their appearance or behaviour at all. Likewise, an American weeb who claims to be Japanese shouldn't be a valid target of mockery, but every bit as Japanese as an actual born-and-raised Japanese, who has no right to object.
If we're going to so strictly police the boundaries of every other social construct, and say that there is an actual essentialist element or at least one of lived experience required to qualify as part of it, why are we expected to make an exception for gender?
Maybe you think mainstream progressives just don't go far enough and follow their logic to its conclusion here, or maybe the idea is that there are good political reasons to police the boundaries of race; in practice a white man who self-IDs as black isn't going to be perceived as such and so won't be subject to the same struggles actual black people face. But people who object to trans ideology might say the same, that the struggles of a transwoman are not those of a cis woman and so this is a valid reason to police the boundaries of womanhood, too.
That said, personally I am sympathetic to the idea that it may ultimately not matter much if transwomen are granted access to women's changing rooms, sports and prisons, provided they've undergone full medical transition at least. But if this is the reasoning as to why trans self-ID is valid, then fundamentally there is no philosophical reason full ethnic self-ID shouldn't be valid too; it's simply politically inconvenient currently where trans self-ID isn't.
Ultimately though I think if we take this radical self-ID paradigm seriously, it implies people should be able to adopt absolutely any identity they like and be considered valid immediately, no questions asked. But socially constructed identities are an extremely helpful method used to distinguish between categories of people who have salient material differences from one another, so we can't just cease to police all their boundaries.
Spez1alEd
1yr ago
Given that the question states you have to choose between a red or a blue pill, presumably were this a scenario that was happening in real life with real life-or-death stakes, you would have to decide which option you were going to take by choosing one of the pills and swallowing it. There would be no misclicks in such a scenario.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
I did say it is beneficial and not oppression (I grant feminists would probably disagree with that assessment) but nonetheless if you are a feminist whose goal is to attain for women the same level of respect afforded to men, having men treat you with kid gloves all the time could be seen as patronising, if indeed it does stem from a lack of faith in your abilities. And a lack of faith in your abilities could lead them to be unwilling to trust you with large amounts of power or responsibility. Even just being seen to receive this treatment could reinforce the notion that you need it and couldn't succeed on your own.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
Even the MP Jacob Rees Mogg, the upper middle class son of a newspaper proprietor who went to Eton and was himself descended from minor gentry (and iirc married into it) is roundly mocked for basically putting on an aristocratic LARP.
I get the sense most of the people mocking him would do so whether or not he had genuine aristocratic 'cred.' He's not mocked for acting as if he has an aristocratic background when he doesn't really have one, he's mocked for acting as though having an aristocratic background makes him superior.
Spez1alEd
1yr ago
I don't think Rationalists would be worried about AI alignment if they thought that more intelligent = more better in every relevant way.
Isn't that exactly why they are worried about AI alignment? They don't necessarily consider intelligence to confer moral superiority, but many do consider it to be among the most important qualities in determining how competent/powerful an agent is. That's exactly why it's scary to think of what would happen if an extremely intelligent, hence powerful, agent that didn't share any of humanity's core values were to emerge.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
What good moral behaviour is being maintained by avoiding the use of shaming tactics? I would be surprised if there were many people who were against the use of shaming absolutely, in all contexts.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
It's pretty simple really. Mocking or ridiculing them for being trans, taking it as a sign they're a potential sexual predator, suggesting violence should be visited upon them for being trans, wishing them to be disowned by their family or socially ostracised generally, celebrating high rates of suicide among them would all constitute holding trans people in contempt: basically, considering them to be bad people, expressing hatred toward them or wishing harm upon them.
Whereas not validating their gender identity, i.e. refusing to agree that trans women are women or trans men or men, whether or not one chooses to use their preferred pronouns, is obviously not in line with modern pro-trans ideology but doesn't indicate a hatred of them. Nor does believing they should not be treated the same way as cis members of their preferred gender when it comes to sports or changing rooms or prisons and other gender-segregated spaces, or believing they should not be medically transitioning at a young age or without going through a thorough screening process to verify their gender dysphoria, or that in some cases transition is not necessary. Basically it just comes down to the fact that not affirming their beliefs or identity isn't the same thing as despising them the way people on places like /pol/ tend to.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
In terms of relative severity, "Paki" in the UK is as bad as "Nigger", possibly worse. Both would result in a beatdown and/or prosecution if used to insult an identifiable member of the group referred to, and cancellation if used to insult the group generically.
Although it would definitely be thought of as offensive I don't think the word Paki is considered nearly as bad in the UK as nigger is in the US. It's anecdotal but when I was a kid my friends and relatives casually referred to the corner shop as the Paki shop and not in a manner that seemed to imply any genuine racial hostility on their part, likewise to this day Chinese people, restaurants and food can all be referred to as a chinky. I don't think you could unironically use these words on TV without causing a controversy, but at least people from around where I'm from aren't going to assume you're an unrepentant racist if they hear you using them the way I assume people would if you go around casually referring to black people as niggers in the US. It could be a class thing, my family is all very working class from a very white area.
I also can't ever recall the word Paki being censored when the media discussed racism against Asians, such as instances of "Paki-bashing" in which Asians have been physically assaulted for their race. If racist attacks against black people in the US were referred to by a term which contained the word nigger I'd be very surprised if the slur wasn't commonly censored when the media reported on it.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
I find it strange as well, but perhaps it's because American conservatism can trace its lineage back to a liberal revolution and its adherents see themselves as carrying on the values of that revolution. The liberal/libertarian elements of the ideology have always struck me as an odd thing to pair with social conservatism, but its followers take them seriously it seems, and in that case perhaps it's no surprise they would opt for the freedom and individualism represented by a car-based society over the sense of community offered in walkable cities. America's immense cultural reach also means that these libertarian tendencies can be exported and influence other conservative movements worldwide.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
We have had a political party actually put abolishing the concept of jail for women in their party manifesto here.
Really? Which one was that? It's the first I've heard of it. I'm not doubting you, I'm just really curious.
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
You could say that about a lot of things. Institutionalised rape, slavery and child brides were pretty common and accepted throughout the ancient world as well, but it would be unusual for a person to defend those things today.
Spez1alEd
1yr ago
I don't know anything about the people involved. For me how we should assess this event basically comes down to the answers to a couple of questions:
- Did he offer the kiss in a way that gave her the opportunity to accept or decline, or just go ahead and do it without waiting for her permission?
- Had the two of them previously established that this level of physical intimacy was normal and accepted in their relationship?
- Did he have any sexual or romantic intentions, or was it a purely platonic gesture?
- Would he have done the same to a male player in the same position?
- Does he have any pre-existing record of sexual misconduct?
Spez1alEd
2yr ago
Am I wrong that it's the most convincing way to advocate for one's ideals?
Well, you could probably live pretty well as an owner of hundreds of slaves in ancient Rome, Medieval Arabia or the early US, but I don't think that would be great proof of your political, cultural or religious ideals being all that great. Especially considering that people from all these places would probably heavily disagree with each other on what society's values should be.
Spez1alEd
7mo ago
The male/female dynamic to me appears to very closely mirror the adult/child dynamic and I'm not sure why more people don't frame it this way. Most norms or policies that are criticised as misogynistic are really more paternalistic in my estimation, based on the intuition that women aren't as strong, capable or accountable and so are in need of special protection and consideration from men, who might even be asked to sacrifice their lives, but on the flip side people traditionally see men as much more capable and agentic and independent and generally worth taking seriously.
Women benefit a lot from this dynamic obviously and it's even embedded in a lot of progressive ideas and campaigns if unwittingly, but you can see how it's not exactly as flattering to them as it might first appear, framing them as more of a beloved subordinate than a respected equal.
Spez1alEd
1yr ago
It seems clear to me he wasn't saying he believes in judging people as in "possessing the personality trait of being particularly judgemental." He just meant that when we assess someone's character, which everyone inevitably does, we should do so based on their actual individual character and not based on which identity groups they're a part of or on their immutable characteristics. At least I would be very surprised if he meant anything else.
Thank you as well, I was a little worried it'd come across as harsh. I do sympathise with the reservations many have about the trans issue obviously but the hysteria over trans people supposedly all being paedo groomers is really disgusting, and probably does more to move me in a more trans-friendly direction than any actual pro-trans argument. I'm sure many people feel the same way. All the best.
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