fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Haha, I had to stop myself from doing that joke (as well as “we got a perfectly good arab right here”) as it could have been interpreted as slightly demeaning in the context of summoning a guy to answer charges of ethnic dishonesty.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Interesting. It seems they never came upon an atrocity they didn’t like.
death by garrote for the lesbians.
In mexica culture, this is how one shows great respect and clemency.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
okay thanks, let’s just go ahead and retire this taqiya meme.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Right, as I thought. I don’t think anyone here would accuse you of taqiya.
As far as you can tell, is there anything resembling this religious lying concept in the arab culture?
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Hold on, we got an arabophone right here : @ymeskhout , ever heard of taqiya, the thing that isn't a hat ?
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
A) It wasn’t always a gun to the head situation. The government dropped T4 in the face of popular opposition. Granted, if you told them head-on that you did not want to fight their stupid war, it would not take long before you were handed a death sentence.
B) That particular robber wasn’t asking for a few reichsmarks, but for your soul, and the lives of your children and brothers. I think it does change the calculus of what amount of courage can be expected of someone.
I don’t want to tea-bag anyone , as far as I’m concerned, the statues can stay, they’re a part of history, no need to re-write it. I do think history should be judged however, and not only on its own moral terms. I do condemn sparta, even though I recognize its martial excellence.
My grandma’s brother fell at 17 in the last months of the war. He didn’t want to go apparently. We could never mention him or the city where he died in front of her or she would start crying. I really can’t forgive the leaders, and even just regular adults who went along with it, for what they did to the country (to say nothing of all the non-german victims) . They all had their reasons of course, but they just were not good enough. Sure, most of the blame falls on the leaders, and the enthusiastic nazis, but in my view there is still more than enough blood left to mark every quiet follower as a murderer.
And it is true that rommel was tacitly supporting the stauffenberg attempt, but it was too tacit. As you say, even in his death he assisted the regime, keeping morale up. I’ll grant that he’s not morally in the same league as guys like schörner who were executing soldiers for refusing orders up to the very end (before abandoning his men to surrender to the americans).
I loved and agreed with this comment so much I had to think of something to say.
The best part of democracy is that it’s the sublimation of a battle. Count heads, go home alive, prosper. Of course it relies on using sheer number of people as proxy for fighting prowess, but it’s a decent one, and it has paid off handsomely.
So why not sublimate even more battles? Richest side was very likely going to win anyway. Count your money, go home alive, prosper. I completely agree with caplan, it’s a magnificient, tremendously assymetric, super-ethical weapon: even if they had the money, and they don’t, militaristic dictatorships do not have the credibility, or the quality of life to spend the money in.
What do the virtue ethicists here think? Is it dishonorable to make soldiers betray their country, or is it good to save lives and ordnance?
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
I think it more likely he didn't know the other meaning, because it's archaic/obscure.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Actually, I knew a palestinian relatively well at uni, and I asked him about taqiya, and he said ‘taqiya? Taqqiyyya? Oh, yes, it means small hat’. He could have been lying of course, but given that we had already discussed politics extensively, and he had candidly admitted to supporting death for apostates, cartoonists, jews, calling all western women whores , believing all kinds of conspiracy theories, mostly about jews, and so on, (nice guy otherwise) , I think he was being honest.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
I don’t think lying is the reason, I am led to understand taqiya is more of a shia thing, and I am reluctant to go straight for the bad faith accusation .
But it’s easy to miss the radicalism if you don’t ask specific questions. About apostates, jews, cartoons, palestine. I was taken aback more than once by the complete change in demeanor and attitude once I breached those subjects with educated , otherwise pleasant acquaintances. I realized then that not only were we not going to be friends, but peaceful coexistence with those who believe what they believe was going to be a tall order. Most were middle eastern though, and this was in europe (turks were generally ok).
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Your theory :
1.) Egypt lets jihadists into gaza
2.) Israel is forced to attack Egypt ?
I think it goes
2.) Gaza turns into ISIS-P
3.) No one gives a shit when israel levels the place
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Don’t take this an attack, Knot, but do you now feel that you were often wrong when you defended the low inflation predictions of mainstream economists(and the bond market) ?
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
It gets tiring repeating this to you, but I’m not woke or progressive by any stretch of the imagination. I’m only in this because of the analogy to nazi germany and the prussian military tradition, as a german I’ve had to think long and hard about what it means to act justly within an unjust system, and I don’t think it can be done. The loyal dog of an evil master is not a good dog. So no, I do ponder constantly what to do when you’re on the ‘wrong side’. Frankly you guys are mindkilled, you’d defend anyone to get back at the woke.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
It's less that, and more that if you ended up in the position of any power, it would be unlikely you would restrain yourself against your enemies, and would end up committing nazi-esque atrocities.
Lee and rommel helped the atrocities/slaughter along just as much as if they had personnally, sadistically perpetrated them. What they did was perhaps even worse, as they gave moral horror a sheen of panache and respectability.
You accuse me of imaginary lack of restraint, but what good was their restraint? A few british prisoners thought rommel was a swell chivalrous guy, big deal. Meanwhile the military machine he was the mascotte of was starving soviet POWs in the millions. And lee’s pleasant conversations with his old west point buddies can hardly compensate for thousands of little guys dying in a ditch for nothing.
In effect, they would stab you just like a rabid nazi or Bedford Forrest would have, but they would do so politely and efficiently. Sorry, but you don’t get moral points for being affably evil.
Let’s back up a bit. Forget the woke, the current culture war. I’m not interested in Lee’s statue, but in his moral stature. Let’s say you’re lee, or rommel, or a random officer in the german or newly formed confederate army. You get your marching orders. Your home state, your friends and family, are going along with the program, but you have major reservations about ‘the cause’. What is the morally correct course of action?
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Who's opinion I was do you think I'm asking you to ask for, if not Slavs'?
Slavs. I think slavs who prefered germans to russians were a bit blindsided by the neatly polished hugo boss boots and would have died in much greater numbers under Generalplan ost than under any 5 year plan.
Nazism seems to fit nicely into the "would not have happened were it not for people deeply convinced they're on the Right Side Of History" template.
Show me people who fought for any side, anywhere, who thought they were wrong. I implied my side is morally good, that must mean I’m a nazi. Please. You said ‘people like me’ turn good causes into evil causes, then use nazism as an example, but of course, there was nothing good about nazism from the start. It was always on its predetermined path towards genocide and war. This was apparent. Alas, germans by and large chose loyalty to their country over morality and obedience over conscience. Like lee, like you and hlynka argue, is only right and proper.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
ask them their relative opinion of the Wehrmacht vs. the Red Army.
Well who doesn’t love the germans. Those slavs could have taken solace in the fact that they would have starved to death in a very orderly manner.
The point is that people like you are known to turn non-evil causes into evil ones.
Which causes, slavery, nazism? Anyway, we are not even disagreeing on the sides here.
Obedience, a sense of duty, loyalty, professionalism, those things are not good in a vaccuum. When they are present in people who serve evil, they become evil. They make things worse. It is morally blind to evaluate Lee’s qualities as if he had served the good. Had he been a cowardly, dumb, lazy drunkard, thousands of lives would have been saved. His honor has been a net negative for humanity. He failed morally as very few people fail. A mean-spirited, sadistic soldier in his army only has a small fraction of the blood on Lee's hands, he's an angel compared to Lee.
It’s like Scott’s ‘asymmetric weapons’ concept. Obedience, or, say, loyalty to your home community, helps both Hitler and Roosevelt, it’s a symmetric weapon. Otoh, disobedience, ie, asking the question ‘am I really doing the right thing here, should I give my loyalty to this guy?” is asymmetric, it is more likely to help the good guy and harm the bad guy.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
I don’t get what you’re saying here. They weren’t so bad, compared to some hypothetical regime that would commit a genocide of equal proportion, but would purposefully, systematically torture people before killing them… is that your point?
Consider the ordinary execution of genocides in history.
I don’t think a bullet to the neck under stalin or getting stabbed under pol pot was worse. They didn't go out of their way to make undesirable units suffer either.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Oh, but the german army was full of such honorable, patriotic men. They had made an oath, and they had a duty to their state and people. And by God they carried it out.
It doesn't matter if I'm a horrible person so long as I'm on the right side is an ok thought in theory
Complete misunderstanding of my point: It doesn’t matter if I’m a decent person as long as I serve an evil cause.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
I’d rather they pick the moral side to begin with, instead of sacrificing hundreds of thousands of men for the sake of their ‘honor’, and then be honorable. With gentlemen like these, you don't need scoundrels.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
He doesn’t make good arguments and he spams.
I’m not going to waste my time presenting the false flag case again. I’ve done it enough previous times, the mods have done it in this very thread. It’s absolutely beyond doubt, but it doesn’t matter. Just ban him for deleting. Whatever he is, he will then make another alt, and at least this one won’t delete. Small mercies.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s still deleting his posts? Why do you keep tolerating this? Aside from the damage to the readability of the sub, it leaves no doubt as to who he is, there is no meaningful chance of a false positive here.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
One reason for the discrepancy is there was some gaslighting on the inflation. First they said it wasn’t happening, then that it was transitory. They were dragged kicking and screaming into raising rates, which they swore would strangle growth and reduce employment. Now they bring these low-ball inflation numbers , which mathematically result in higher real growth, and people have trouble believing it. Understandable, as no one understands what’s happening, but some are still pretending. Mainstream economists are using this baffling economic situation to argue they were right the whole time, as if being wrong twice makes you right.
fuckduck9000
2yr ago
You only found out now that the identity of the victim or of the speaker matters more to the woke than the facts or the content of the speech? Why is it grating or apoplexy-inducing to have people agree with you?
I quickly went through his twitter (my god, is this woke/girlbossy style tiresome).
But aside from the usual profession of faith
I am a gay Jew. I am a Zionist. I am progressive. I believe in fighting with & for other oppressed groups. But... I feel betrayed by the progressive world’s antisemitism & I am furious. But still... I won’t stop believing in progressive values. I won’t stop fighting. 2:27 PM · Dec 31, 2019
He seems very very focused on antisemitism, especially from other progressives. I didn’t see any condamnation of ‘white’ islamophobia.
Almost all of my experiences with antisemitism have been from the left. My first relationship was ruined by it. My university career was ruined by it. Friendships have been ruined by it. I have been traumatised & scarred by it. Do not tell me it isn't real.
Of course israel would first ask for the hostages, in exchange for not bulldozing Al-Aqsa. Palestinians and their supporters need to understand that all their kicking and screaming and butchering ultimately means nothing, achieves nothing, and that they are the weak horse. Militarily and spiritually.
It’s just a building, nothing compared to the thousands of deaths on both sides we are contemplating. And persons excluded, stone for stone, they can say it’s revenge for the buddhas of Bamyan. Perhaps buddha would not have approved, but he wasn’t a building.
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