idio3
1mo ago
Could you elaborate on how old elite hold power in France.
Maybe I phrased it incorrectly, but I just meant the traditional party system. Since the end of occupation, France has been ran by either Gaullists or Socialists. The exact name of the party changes and sometimes there are breakups and mergers or whatever, but the French electoral system just kind of implies two major parties - one on centre-left and one on centre-right. Since it's not pure FPTP, other parties are not quite as screwed as they are in Britain or USA, but they're nonetheless strongly underrepresented.
Over the past two decades France has kind of gone through and electorally murdered every single imaginable combination of these traditional governing elites. UMP/LR (centre-right) were wiped out after Sarkozy, then PS (centre-left) got wiped out even worse under Hollande, with power falling to a defector from PS, Macron, making a centrist (really kind of just basic liberal) party, whose popularity was initially huge, but has progressivey lost ground.
My point is that there really aren't any tricks left up the sleeve of the traditional political forces. They all have a popularity akin to Hitler at a synagogue or something. Macron appointed a premier out of LR despite having no prospect whatsoever of it having parliamentary support. How all of this will keep workin until the next election is going to be fascinating. My guess is that not much will get done in general.
Or am I looking at it through rose-tinted glasses ?
Vous semblez utiliser le clavier français, lol.
Les espaces avant le point d'interrogation vous ont trahi 😁
idio3
1mo ago
Where are you seeing this? I'm seeing Hashim Safi Al Din (his cousin) but nothing about Nasrallah himself beyond him being targetted. Saudi and Iranian sources both claim he's fine and in a safe place.
idio3
1mo ago
If your belief is simply that no commenter, no matter how long-standing and high-quality-on-average, should ever be able to get away with posting anything low-effort, that’s fine, but it is not my position, nor does it appear to be the mods’ position.
It very explicitly is not my belief, you misunderstood me. My point was that upvote/downvote system is bad at weeding out low-effort postings in general, because vast majority of people will not downvote a low-effort inflammatory statement that they agree with. I am with you as far as the idea that low-effort posting only becomes a serious concern when it dominates over higher-effort posting, and that is usually caused by people who pretty much exclusively post low-effort, ideologically-motivated comments.
If you genuinely do hold that belief, why not make an effortful post about it?
I've done the very thing you suggested once 🫠. That's why I'm never going to be able to climbe out of a premoderation hole, lol
idio3
1mo ago
No, most people don't even remember a post from months ago. I don't even remember you.
Fair enough, my apologies. I'm originally from /r/drama, just came here in passing a while back due to being friendly with a number of motte regulars. My example is not that interesting, what's valuable in it is how it illustrates the drawbacks of the system.
After a certain number of upvotes (I don't know what the algorithm is, only Zorba does) you come out of the "new user" filter.
Pretty sure that it is not the case. Can't conclusively disprove it, but I am almost certain that it is, in fact, upvotes minus downvotes threshold, not just a number of upvotes. If it only counted upvotes, my original post would have been enough to clear it (while horribly received, it did accumulate some positive reaction).
You just haven't posted enough.
But this is the very effect I am complaining about. The disincentive towards posting while knowing that it will take up to 12 hours for the comment to appear in a thread that is having an active discussion is huge. If that wasn't the case, I'd absolutely post more, and I assure you that I am not alone in that regard.
The question is whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. If discouraging people like me from posting is the system working as designed - then that's fine, I just think that it goes against the stated goals of the platform.
idio3
1mo ago
I reject the characterization of my comment as a low-effort hot take.
That's fine. If you believe that "Anyone affiliated with the Innocence Project deserves prison time" is a sophisticated, nuanced argument in favour of a certain position - it is your right to do so. I disagree and not simply with the position itself, but also with the prospects of such a comment leading to a reasoned discussion that could arrive at some interesting conclusion.
Here's a counter-example: "Executing all landlords in the world would be a good way to solve the housing crisis". It's a position that's a little juvenile and rather facile, but I am absolutely capable of writing a number of high-effort, good(ish) faith arguments for it by using utilitarian principles.
Do you think that the discussion writing something like this would lead to is going to be high level?
idio3
1mo ago
Yes, would love some other examples.
Sure. PVV (Geert Wilders) in the Netherlands, VOX in Spain, Chega in Portugal, Reform in the UK etc. All of them are a response to the traditional parties essentially fusing on issues that are the subject of genuine controversy within the society, while the social and economic problems directly attributable to the policies by the traditional elites are growing.
Also, how much of a fad is BSW?
I'm not German and am not really extremely plugged into their society, but I doubt it's much of a fad. SPD moving away from any sort of traditional social-democratic policies in favour of becoming milquetoast eco-liberals created an empty space on the left. Die Linke occupied that space for a while, but suffered from internal conflicts based on oppression hierarchies and other essentially social issues - BSW doesn't have that issue. You can agree or disagree with their stances, but it's undeniable that there is a space within a political system for them.
idio3
1mo ago
The only people I can recall recently who posted regularly yet stayed in the new user filter persistently for months were AahTheFrench and Darwin/guesswho
Well, here's another example for you. Me 😊. I have zero chance of ever climbing out of the karma hole here. I'm not super worried about it, but, for the record, the reason for it is one (intentionally provocative) thread that did lead to a discussion challenging the standard beliefs. Was it super-valuable? Of course not, and your comment on that thread summed it up pretty well. Was it bad enough to warrant a permanent modfilter? I'd argue that it wasn't and there is plenty of examples of far worse things adding nothing but vitriol towards the outgroup.
While being upvoted.
Without a new user filter, we mods would wake up to a ton of "Kill All Niggers! Death to Kikes and Faggots!" posts spamming the board which we would then have to clean up.
New user filter as it exists certainly helps with that to an extent, but its primary effect is completely different. It was trivial for me to find an example perfectly illustrating my point from just scrolling through the modlog. Here you go, the comment is essentially saying "people vote for communists because they just want to kill niggers." Votes on it are +3/-1, the -1 probably coming from the moderator who ended up handing out a tempban (no complaint here, it was a right choice). Voters had no problem with it. Is that how the system is supposed to work?
If you have an alternate suggestions, propose it.
If the goal is to avoid the things you mentioned, adjusting the filter to deal with that would be trivial. Simply adjust the filter to be 7 days + 50 comments (or some similar number) which will still filter random incoming trolls, without enforcing the echo-chamber and punishing going against the circlejerk. From my experience of working with coders on the same codebase motte is written on, something like that can be written and implemented in minutes. The question is only about what you want your system to accomplish...
idio3
1mo ago
While I've had my fair share of sometimes heated arguments with Frenchie and agree that the comment you're responding to is a low-effort contentless flame which at best will lead to nothing at all, the next part of your argumentation is just bad.
So much so that after being here for months, we still have to manually approve your posts because you can't get out of the new user filter. This isn't because you have some brave iconoclastic point of view that's too much for the Motte (...)
This is simply wrong. The new user filter feature is fundamentally chilling effect on views that go against the local mainstream and has a very predictable endpoint, already visible here. Fundamentally, low-effort "hot takes" like this (to name something you have encountered most recently) are not going away, but alternative viewpoints that go against that sort of content - most likely are.
The problem you're not seeing is that it's not the absence of a "variety of hot takes", it's that relying on the upvote/downvote mechanism for user absorption is guaranteed to fossilize a consensus based on some side of the very culture war this thread is about. I've had that argument with your colleagues on the site's telegram a number of times, and, as far as I can tell, there really isn't a counter-argument to present. Even if you're okay with having that particular kind of opinion dominate, you are still going to face a fall in quality of content, as is always the case in all echo-chambers that face no pushback.
Since I'm never going to be able to climb out of the new user filter you seem to laud, I doubt this comment will actually appear in the thread. But hopefully you'll at least see it...
idio3
1mo ago
France is probably the clearest example of the old elites holding on to power via technicalities, but Germany is about two electoral cycles away from that being no longer tenable.
Since the whole traditional establishment essentially refuses to compete based on the largest political issues in Europe, the "alternative" or "populist" parties (not just AfD and RN, but BSW and LFI as well, with other examples elsewhere I could list if requested) are gaining steam on the edges. The way liberal democracy works, where traditional parties have a very highly integrated hold on media and social organizations, means that the electorate will likely choose all options in sequence before finally abandoning them all. We've already seen the last stage of this process play out in France, where remnants of old elites only got any reasonable percentage (though nowhere near majority) due to the deal with Mélenchon. While Germany is unlikely to have the same issue the very next election, where CDU is going to win based on voters nostalgia for Merkel years, there's no chance they can actually repair the problems it's facing.
Five years from now, the traditional parties, tracing their descent to West German political system, are going to be in the minority in Bundestag. Since the others will be both to the left and to the right of them, it will probably lead to some sort of a political crisis. And since Germany doesn't have the sort of strong presidency that France does, this crisis cannot be resolved in the same way.
Obviously something could happen in the meantime that will change the equation, but I just don't see it. The entirety of EU is enthusiastically running towards the edge of a cliff and I can't currently picture a way out...
idio3
5mo ago
If you have telegram I could link a bunch, but it's annoying to have to download/reupload to hosting sites otherwise. It was always in this sort of style - over-the-top hysteria with ketchup and yelling.
idio3
5mo ago
Traditionally Russians have this thing, where they (in contrast to rather lukewarm interest in Western Europe) send their ambassadors, cultural orgs, and anyone else who is in any way official - to go and put flowers on wherever local WW2 monument is. The propaganda point there is fairly obvious - hey, we still remember the war that we won, while the rest of you don't, and are probably cryptonazis or at least sympathizers anyway.
In the past few years the actions of local governments have really, really nicely played into that message, since EU members have acted unbelievably and consistently dumb in pretty much everything they did as far as foreign policy is concerned. There are extremes, like near-baltic microstates, where governments themselves are arresting people for flowers or flags, but in the actual EU, this was mostly done via the sort of organized performances by shady activists like the ones on the video above, just on a larger scale. It worked fine, with journos being able to get a headline of glorious victory of activists or whatever, but this year they've been relegated to just part of the background.
idio3
5mo ago
Since it's 9th of May today, of course Victory Day events are taking place. This has historically been mostly ignored in Western/Central Europe, aside from minor things like ambassadors laying flowers on whatever monument is available locally. Over the past few years, these things have been successfully prevented through organized performance art style protests drawing gigantic crowds of journalists. Of course, something similar happened again this year:
https://streamable.com/e/fnrnke
None of this is news, of course. What is interesting is that they haven't updated them at all in about two and a half years now, with these performance art events now kind of falling into irrelevance. This year they actually didn't even prevent the thing they were trying to prevent and the only attention they garnered was derision from their opponents. Whether it means that the media and the general public are now less interested in this kind of pseudoshock content, or is this subject in particular now being retired?
I wouldn't go as far as calling them "socially right" - it's not like they want to ban abortions or integrate religion into classrooms and the like. On standard social issues BSW essentially just has a standard 90s era social-democratic rhetoric - they're subordinate to economic issues, but people are meant to be free to do what they want without influence from reactionary organizations. The only reason this can possibly seem right-wing is because SPD and their ilk elsewhere in Western Europe / North America have gone way past that in the past decade and change. But BSW is still nowhere near US republicans or other genuinely conservative forces...
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