idio3
1yr ago
Not fair! I tried to post my thread back when you guys had like three posts, and then your site died...
idio3
1yr ago
But I really don't want to tie it to upvotes; we don't want to encourage people to pander to upvotes even further, y'know?
We fixed this on rdrama in a fairly trivial manner - make both upvotes and downvotes give dramacoin.
idio3
1yr ago
Hi guys!
Someone suggested we recruit for the motte/drama combined BotC game here. I figured I'd use this moment to spoil this idea before someone far more trustworthy and reputationally sound actually recruits more people with propensity towards studying autism charts. Don't do it!..
idio3
10mo ago
In my opinion, the actual arguments are quite clear, but you're welcome to ask for clarification of any points you believe aren't sufficiently supported.
idio3
10mo ago
Vast majority of these issues are created via horrifically failed social policies. While bums and whatnot are always going to be present under any social system where the need to keep the ruled in fear is paramount for its continued existence - having a less despicable middle class whose insecurities don't cause them to adopt as ghoulish of policies typically helps with having them at least somewhat contained, even in places that aren't nearly as wealthy.
But, of course, as long as the system continues to require a terrifyingly downtrodden underclass to scare the general mass into compliance - bums will continue to exist in the cities. In the cities, because their survival depends on being in areas of dense foot traffic. That's hardly a legitimate reason to retreat to the unbelievably lame dystopia of the endless lawn...
idio3
10mo ago
What would it take for me to empathize with these guys?
Perhaps a lobotomy.
Cui bono? Whose incentives got us into this situation?
That is a very complicated issue with multiple factors. Partially it was a planned marketing campaign by a number of industries. Partially it was mass racist hysteria, and partially this hysteria was manufactured or at least aggravated by some well-meaning, but objectively misguided policies.
This is a very interesting discussion to have.
What might right-thinking people do to fix the mess?
Well, on one hand it looked like it was slowly getting a bit better, with gentrification and expansion of public transport into something that isn't inherently a meme. But then 2020 events happened, each of which has done a lot to reverse the recent gains. Fixing it would require a number of centralized (not local) policies now.
Why am I anywhere near Cook County?
Why wouldn't you be?
idio3
10mo ago
What is the current status of public transport? I’ve heard the hub-and-spoke trains plus the L makes for an effective enough solution. Is that not true?
It depends on how close you are to the loop. If you're relatively near - yeah, public transport works great. If you're far away and not near the L station - getting places is going to be a struggle.
idio3
10mo ago
I probably would not have approved it, had I been the one at the queue.
Getting it approved was a challenge. Your mod tools were broken on mobile and a bunch of other technical stuff I don't really understand.
idio3
10mo ago
Well, space is by far the most obvious one. 20 floors of 100m3 flats is infinitely denser than 200 lawns. The remaining area could be used for public spaces, with actual attractions and/or purpose. Effort is a bit more complex, but just think of it as the case of economies of scale - individual lawns will take a lot more total man-hours to maintain than an equivalent public space, even if the latter has considerably more "things" to take care of.
idio3
10mo ago
Do you want suburban housing demolished and larger capacity units built instead?
That would be ideal. Larger capacity also fixes the mass transit problem, as denser areas are much easier and more cost-effective to connect.
I don't see how an extra hour of free time per week per household would change anything in the grand calculus of life.
As part of a grand realignment it would actually be quite significant. Keep in mind that commute would also significantly decrease (denser, closer, better transit, etc) and public spaces would improve.
idio3
10mo ago
There's three separate issues presented there. Automobiles and their radical and very successful destruction of public transport and creation of absolutely massive parking infrastructure - all as part of a concerted effort by relevant industries to lobby for these changes. The hysteria refers to white flight, which started on its own but was considerably aggravated by highly destructive bussing policies within urban areas.
Obviously each one of these could have their very own post written about them.
idio3
10mo ago
Japanese density is somewhat of its own, special case that stems from the sheer number of people packed into a rather small island. Their peculiar problems would not really translate to places where land isn't as incredibly limited.
You use the term Karen-y which puts you square in my mind in a certain youthful angry nihilistic demographic that is alien to me.
That is interesting. Which demographic would you consider that to be? I was under the impression that the stereotype of a self-absorbed and pushy middle aged crank is not really limited to any particular demographic. It just didn't have a catchy name attached to it until recently.
idio3
10mo ago
I strongly disagree with your premise in its fundamentals.
First of all, your view of what an American middle class suburb entails is pervers. Dacha or Rublyovka or whatever are an extremely poor facsimile for it. The former exists fundamentally for spending one's free time in and by its very nature promotes socializing. The latter is an equivalent of an elite social club, with all the baggage that goes along with it. I'm not a huge fan of these hyper-posh exclaves, but their essence is radically different from what the topic of the conversation is here.
On your second point - the idea of interaction quantity and quality is just objectively wrong. For the elderly, the bench in front of the flat block is the primary if not the sole driver of social interaction, for young people - accessibility of trappings of civilization is paramount. Middle-aged office plankton might have an easier time interacting with others of the exact same background and life experience, but that is mostly caused by their failure to attempt to broaden their horizons beyond the lowest of the forms of entertainment.
Most importantly, the point that the representatives of this despicable socioeconomic class like to point to the most - children. In their minds, led by their monomaniacally controlling and fearful nature, the disconnection that these environments provide are a feature, not a bug. But the fact that it is on the parents to control what and with whom their children and adolescents spend their time on is a highly successful vehicle for mass producing extremely sheltered and dysfunctional soys (for the lack of a better term - autists works too, if you prefer). These undersocialized products of isolated plots are everywhere, and they are often the primary cause of a lot of problems facing the society at large.
Finally - your idea that "designated areas" lead to less interaction is hard to justify at all. A common playground is a phenomenal place to force interaction among both parents and children. A nearby bar - for adults. Local football field or a garden - for children. The idea that individual patches of grass separated by wooden fences is better than these is absurd.
idio3
10mo ago
That's a very wide net you're casting as far as possible demographics. The only ones you've missed are gen-xers and zoomers. If you care to narrow it down a little bit, I'll comment.
Sure Japan is population dense, but still I would love a good backyard.
That sentence is silly. Population density fundamentally excludes that. Even (common) courtyards are rare in places as dense as major Japanese metropolises - yards are simply impractical. Almost everything positive that you can ascribe to a Japanese city as a product of that density and would not work in a sprawling giant of a "metro area".
idio3
10mo ago
Some problems perhaps, but as for violent crimes and abuse... Do you care to hazard a guess what the nature of the upbringing of our very worse has been?
I do. It's extreme poverty. I am supremely confident that it is a far better predictor of being the "very worst" than population density.
Let me illustrate - which location do you think produces more of these "very worst" - Near North Side or Gary? Once you have an answer, contemplate on what it implies.
There is a kind of anonymity that comes with dense living, 95% or more of the people who pass by my home are not people I recognize and would not stop what they're doing to share an anecdote.
Of course. But I have a hard time understanding why momentary physical proximity is supposed to be the ultimate driver of social interaction. It can be - I've had building neighbours I've been great friends with - but it absolutely doesn't have to be. Living in the city puts you in an incredibly easily achievable access to a huge amount and a wide variety of people. Lots of them of the types you'll absolutely never get the slightest hope to see in a suburb.
That all these middle class people are dead inside is a trick of the light and your ego, a kind of faint hope that all these other people must be wrong, not you, your interesting life with the ever rotating, really in a constant state of disintegrating, group of friends dumping booze soaked trauma on each other must be giving you something that the squares can never have. Or else what was the point?
Well, it was hardly a huge secret that the goal was to be subversive. However I stand by my general assessment. It isn't based on any faint hope or anything of the sort - I genuinely do consider anyone who willingly abandons civilization (at the cost of an extensive daily commute) for the sake of incredibly meager comforts attached to a cardboard box on a patch of grass - to be fundamentally damaged in one way or another. Maybe their career just sucks all the life out of them, or maybe they were simply raised in a way that values uniformity above all else. I don't know, and my attempts to understand have thus far been unsuccessful.
idio3
10mo ago
plenty of people do have yards in less urban areas of Japan
Here's the key phrase here. I'm specifically seething about the ones in more urban areas. What people do in the middle of nowhere concerns me very little. I in fact sympathise (at least to an extent) with people that prefer more rural living.
I am suggesting these are similar terms people use to classify their outgroup, as you have classified Karens, or by using the term "Karen-y" as if that is something we are all meant to sympathize with and understand.
Not to go into meta-linguistics, but it's just a shorthand for an annoying, pedantic, and pushy person. All words carry some sort of an origin, but worrying about that sort of thing is just limiting your own ability to express yourself.
idio3
10mo ago
I don't think the near north side is producing very many kids at all.
Not going to look up the exact numbers, but with ~100k inhabitants, I'm pretty sure it's not going to be behind most suburbs.
It's this wide access that is the very problem! Why put down deep roots with some person when you're constantly exposed to new potential
This point I genuinely don't understand. Why is that a problem? Do you really need to have the desperation of inability to get away from someone on your side to make an actual friend? If they find someone else they're exposed to more to their liking - great! It wasn't meant to be.
and more importantly those people you'd never be able to find in the suburb also see you as one in thousands or millions.
Sure. But the great thing about being in the big city is that they have designated areas where they find each other intentionally. And it works just fine, because one in thousands still yields a few hundred easily.
I think there are merits to different housing configurations and if you can't see what could cause some huge proportion of the population to choose one over the other then you lack either perspective or imagination.
I can see what would cause that, intellectually, but it's not particularly flattering and most certainly not what they believe is causing them to do so.
From my understanding you hail from a Russian style of block housing. I hail from the suburbs and we've both lived in or near the Chicago urban core. We should be able to hash this out.
The block housing part I feel would lead us into an entirely different conversation which I have found to be incredibly unproductive in the past. They aren't great architecturally, granted, but simply looking at them in isolation is silly. Their advantages lie in absolutely incredible access to vast networks of public infrastructure, which is, unfortunately, entirely lacking in American cities. Primarily because the actual city part is squeezed into a really tiny area by the immovable bulk of the proverbial lawn.
idio3
10mo ago
Clearly you haven’t tried hard enough to understand other people. Ever heard of social signaling? It’s pervasive, and it’s important. Lawns and large plots are a premier American status symbol.
Best, most honest explanation yet!
Before you mock this out of hand
I wouldn't dream!..
I’d encourage you to look at your own life and how you try to signal your status. We all do it, there’s nothing wrong inherently in status signaling.
Inherently? No. When it takes the form of a watch you wear or the pants you put on - it's fairly harmless, if potentially gaudy as fuck if done by nouveau riche. When it's something that overtakes a highly significant part of your life and affects the entire way a city functions - it becomes inherently wrong.
Think of it in terms of an analogy - chasing some wine with a cracker in a ritual of faux (semi)cannibalism might be somewhat odd to a completely naive observer, but it's not really causing any serious issues. Throwing homosexuals off a high tower, on the other hand, is a bit more controversial and damaging in a very real sense.
idio3
10mo ago
It's oppressive and not the way humans were meant to live. You need to have some distance from other people.
That is just patently false. Human is a social ape that for most of its history had not even the slightest inkling of personal space or privacy. The idea of a personal house separated by some space barrier from the next one is a very modern one.
idio3
10mo ago
You’ve jumped through the hoops, tried your best, earned the status symbols and are trying to wrest some meaning from your life.
...and that meaning comes from a lawn? Christ... What a miserable conception of a meaning...
idio3
10mo ago
But high density housing already exists in Cook county, residents have the choices to move there if they would like. Destroying existing housing is not efficient. Wouldn't it make more sense to amend zoning laws and allow developers to build high density housing where demand allows?
Well of course it does, the "nuke the suburbs" is an intentionally inflammatory conversation starter, hardly practical (or even desirable) in reality. Yes, housing needs to get a lot denser, but it's a lot better to do that through gradual growth of existing high-density areas outwards than through trying to fill the entire metro with flat blocks.
The reason that isn't possible is due to the oversized influence lawn enthusiasts yield over the cities. So the high-density, actual, urban core suddenly stops in quite a few places.
idio3
10mo ago
"My office plankton job makes me inherently superior to those dirty poors, who just lack my good, old-fashioned work ethic" is considered to be boo outgroup, just a content-free insult, here.
While your criticism is fine in general, this particular sentence you quoted was incredibly obviously satirical. Both in tone and in context.
Hi guys!
:marseywave:
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