thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
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User ID: 1081
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
8mo ago
Should I save a drowning child in such a situation? Is it better for a child to die than to develop a strong social bond to a pedophile with all the risks that entails? Or should I save them and stoically endure the eventual "Stay away from my kid, creep!" or just plain "Thanks, now gtfo.", content in the knowledge that I did "the right thing" even while everyone thinks I just did it to get in the kid's pants? Why shouldn't I just say "not my problem" and keep walking?
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Beyond eunuch communities themselves, one of the major sources of information about the subculture comes from TERFs, who are uniquely hostile towards eunuchs among gay men, because they (typically lesbian women) see them as - alongside transwomen - the vanguard of inserting fetishes into the 'LGB' movement they once held dear.
Because of course they would never try to put the public on the hook for their own medical fetishes. It is rather insulting how clearly many lesbians physically fetishize men while denying they have any attraction to them. "I'm not sexually attracted to men." "Then why do you insist you have the right to sexual reproduction via a man's sperm?"
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Or "taboo" it as lesswrong posters would say.
Yes, I know how the community uses the word "taboo" in this situation.
The point seems rather trivial now.
Does it?
"How can [people who claim to not be attracted to men strongly enough to have created an identity around it that is legally protected more strongly than nearly any other] want to get pregnant if getting pregnant requires [the participation of a man] to fertilize their eggs?"
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Orgasms are only sexual because they can result in gamete mixing. If you remove that, what's to differentiate them from any other form of physical activity? Why should they be considered special?
Sure, and once the euphoria of realizing your kid isn't going to die wears off, you'll be a good parent and start worrying about the next set of risks facing them--namely me. Hence the "Thanks, now gtfo." Helping kids almost always ends up being a net negative for my mental health, to which your response would almost certainly be "not my problem".
EDIT: Also, on a more humorous note, is it even physically possible to give CPR to a person "while slapping them in the face with a flaccid cock"? The flexibility required seems inhuman to me...
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
One cannot taboo the phrase "sexual act", as it is entwined with the phrase "sexual orientation". If we limit the definition of "sexual orientation" to non-reproductive acts, why should "sexual orientation" be treated specially as a protected category?
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
8mo ago
I'm not sure whether you are agreeing with me or misunderstanding me, so I'll clarify why I said 'Hence Cuties'. The behavior of the girls in the movie is intended as part of an exploration and critique of women's experiences. Critics of the film argue that the movie is morally bad because of how the girls are portrayed while supporters argue there is nothing wrong with the movie itself and that it is instead viewers (eg, "pedophiles") who interpret it in a titillating context who are morally in the wrong. That is, women should be free to make a movie about their experiences without men coming along and sexualizing it.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Why did you even pick this fight, anyway?
Yeah, I haven’t figured that one out either.
(In reply to @ThisIsSin too) I thought I've been pretty open about having a lot of issues surrounding sex and blaming LGBT and Feminist activism for many of them. I hold lesbians who use dildos and strap-ons and want to get pregnant via IVF in particular disdain for much the same reason that they hold transwomen in disdain--their behavior is a mockery of my sex, and in particular is appropriating the very aspects of my sex (my penis and the sperm it emits) I despise the most while rejecting the rest, all to serve their selfish desires.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
6mo ago
That may be true once you have experience with alcohol, but I think you overestimate the ability of people with less experience to notice. Also, with strong enough alcohol it can easily be too late by the time you've actually tasted it if you don't handle liquor well. I'm quite a bit bigger than the size of the median twelve year old and a single sip of 190-proof Everclear from a flask a friend handed me with no more explanation than "Try this." was more than enough to knock me out within ten minutes. Fortunately it was in company that proved trustworthy (at least, I have no reason to suspect anything untoward happened after I passed out on the couch), but that experience was a bit of a wakeup call for the risks involved.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
It may be rare in men as a whole, but still common enough in some notable subsets of men (eg, athletes in certain popular sports) to create the stereotype.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
"Eating vegetables is incredibly unpopular with kids, which should be noted in any discussion of doing childhood nutrition right."
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
I'm not sure how this relates to my comment, which was just pointing out that calling a woman a "cunt" is more likely to be seen as sexist than calling a man a "dick".
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
It's important to keep in mind that the term "porn" in the US is often used to refer to material that isn't strictly pornographic and sometimes not even sexualized. The stereotype of us being a bunch of prudes exists for a reason.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
Demand that lesbians have sex with them because "a female penis is not the same as a male penis".
Of course, lesbians see nothing wrong with demanding access to the output of the penis (ie, sperm) without having deal with the penis itself or the person attached to it. I have trouble bringing myself to care that they are being criticized for not wanting sex with trans women with penises while feeling entitled to subsidized procreation without sex with people with penises.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
1yr ago
That might make sense if 100% of the people living in Massachusetts "support illegal immigration and welcome them" and 100% of the people living in Arizona don't, but I somewhat doubt it is quite that black and white.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
(which is why I found it weird you're throwing seemingly-unrelated grenades here) ... Yeah, that's what women tell me when I whip out the Fleshlight and start using it while thinking about them; I'm appropriating what beauty they have while rejecting the notion I owe them respect for their wishes and desires.
Had I not spent most of my life getting progressively more fucked up from the grenades they and their ideological allies have been chucking my way, I wouldn't be feeling the need to lob a few back now.
Sure, growing a kid inside yourself absolutely is an intensely sexual thing (even ignoring that it's just an outright fetish for some people), but I'm not as convinced it's the main attraction for lesbians looking for anonymous donations especially because it kind of sucks after a certain point. Maybe there just aren't enough lesbians on the face of the earth to have even one (IVF) Lesbian Octomom?
The issue is pregnancy (and motherhood more generally) is also an intensely female thing. They see straight women bonding over it and feel left out. They cannot accept that not having sex with men could deny them access to such an important aspect of womanhood.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Your question is just trivial. Lesbians can have participation of men in many aspects of life. So long as they aren't also having sex with them, then they're still lesbians and not in some contradictory way.
If I subjected a woman to IVF against her will, would people consider it a sex crime?
A man's sperm fertilizing a woman's egg IS sex, by definition. Intercourse is commonly referred to as 'sex' because it often results in such fertilization. By framing IVF as '[get an egg fertilized by donated sperm]', you are dehumanizing the participants, which is the entire point for lesbians as they must dehumanize the male sperm donor in order to maintain their identity as a lesbian.
Also, isn't their identity based on mutual attraction to women? Is this reframing gayness as a negative rejection of the opposite sex?
It's not a reframing as far as I can tell. Such a negative rejection is inherent to gayness. If you remove it you get bisexuality instead.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
2mo ago
Why should gamete mixing be considered special, compared to blood transfusions?
I'm not arguing it should be. I'm asking why other people consider sexual orientation to be some sacred piece of their identity that needs to be special-cased in law, but then carefully define sexual orientation to only consider a subset of acts that can be considered sexual. If it is all about physical intimacy rather than sexual reproduction, why is it not romantic orientation?
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
3mo ago
why do you believe that a majority of pedophiles pose little to no risk to children? I've already freely conceded that many don't, but I keep saying we can't quantify the risk because we just don't have the denominator. Given that we don't have that denominator, why do you seem so confident that "a large majority of pedophiles never sexually abuse a child"?
Confident is definitely not the right word. It'd be better to say I hope it is the case because it lets me believe in the possibility of a better future and not fall even deeper into nihilistic despair. Also, we're not completely unsure of the denominator--eg, there is some research that estimates it at 1-2% of the population depending on how strictly you define pedophilia.
I feel like that simplistic popular consensus is getting in our way again...
No, in this case I think it is probably my own paranoia getting in the way. I have a lot of hang-ups around sex even beyond attraction to kids (eg, see this old chain), so it is difficult not to be overly defensive here.
If people aren't stupid or crazy for connecting CP with the victimization of children, then your strong claim seems like an overstatement (though perhaps an understandable one born of personal suffering).
I think we're still talking past each other here. Let me try rephrasing my assertion in a less disdainful way and maybe that will help. The comment which I was replying to was making a utilitarian argument that the sexualization of kids in video games could not be immoral because the characters in games are not sapient and thus actions toward them have no moral dimension. I think it is more accurate to model people's response in terms of virtue ethics rather than utilitarian ethics, in which case the harm or lack thereof of the specific situation has little to no moral bearing. I used much cruder terminology because I don't have a very high opinion of that view for probably obvious reasons, but I think this is effectively the same thing you were getting at with
Our psychology is geared toward discerning what kind of person they are
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
3mo ago
I'm genuinely curious about the motivations you've described
I'm happy to go into more detail about my thoughts and experiences if people are honestly interested and don't just want a freak show. I struggle a lot in gathering my thoughts for broad expositions after a serious concussion a few years ago though, so more specific prompting would be helpful.
From your comment, I felt like I was accused of believing 1) child molesters are conscious evildoers, sadists fantasizing about harming children and plotting to get at them
Well that is pretty much what I felt you were saying about pedophiles when you said
there is a direct causal link between pedophilia and trying to have sex with kids
and
So they're not fantasizing about victimizing children?
It seemed to me that you do not recognize the possibility for sexual activity with a child to not be victimization even in a fantasy setting rather than the real world nor that someone could desire it without eventually trying to act it out. I reject a framing of my fantasies as a desire to victimize children, even if I acknowledge that would be the actual result were they to play out in the real world.
My model of child molesters...
I would broadly model child molestation as three largely separate categories: 1) the molester is viewing the child as a fetish, 2) the molester is attempting to have a sexual relationship with the child, and 3) the molester is asserting dominance (not necessarily sadistically) over the child.
An example of the first category would be something like this where the relationship between the molester and the child is largely irrelevant to the act. An example of the second category would be the relationship between Asia Argento and Jimmy Bennett. As you said, this usually involves some level of delusion or motivated reasoning on the part of the molester as to the nature of the situation. I think this category largely corresponds to how you model child molesters? The third category covers things like sexual hazing and other forms of bullying.
Are you asking in what way pedophiles can express their desires without me calling for punishment?
Ways pedophiles can actively seek enjoyment in them without sanction. So tolerating their use of virtual CP would be an example, but probably not explaining it to a therapist.
I'd prefer to wall off anything depicting preadolescents from the general public, to keep it on purpose-specific platforms, where no actual children are likely to stumble upon it. If that's "censorship," then I suppose I am calling for some of it.
I think that's reasonable so long as it is actually accessible to pedophiles and not merely theoretically "accessible" in the way say CCL permits are to residents of NYC.
People are not stupid or crazy for connecting child pornography with the victimization of children, is all I'm saying.
I agree that the reason for their disgust with people who consume virtual CP is both reasonable and understandable. What I'm asserting is that even if it were conclusively shown that consumption of virtual CP significantly reduced the likelihood of a person to molest a child, most people would still be against the consumption of virtual CP because their disgust is more motivating than their desire to reduce the incidence of child abuse. I think this extends well beyond CP as well. For example, I have a decently well-paying job that doesn't involve any interaction with children. I expect that were it to become known that I'm a pedophile, I would be forced out of that job because people don't believe pedophiles deserve such a job--a disgust reaction based not on any actual risk. Do you think I'm wrong in that assessment?
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
4mo ago
My cats are about 50/50 with looking at my finger or what I'm pointing at, which isn't that much worse than my dog, so I'm not sure that's completely true.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
4mo ago
This might be a particularly feminine social weapon, I admit.
Girls do seem more prone to it than boys. Eg, https://www.apa.org/monitor/julaug03/girls
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
4mo ago
I think it is less that the accusations came from outsiders and more that those outsiders were just using the accusations to discredit her arguments via ad hominem.
thrownaway24e89172
naïve paranoid outcast
5mo ago
There was no grief. The problem is merely one of not being able to organize my thoughts well enough and keep them organized long enough to write coherently. The more I tried to focus on the topic to better describe it, the more chaotic and fragmented my thoughts became.
Gay men who use surrogates, assuming they are the sperm donors, are engaging in a sexual act (sexual reproduction) with a woman. Similarly, lesbians who use sperm donors to get pregnant are engaging in a sexual act (sexual reproduction) with a man. What's the difference between wanting to engage in a sexual act with a member of the opposite sex and being sexually attracted to them?
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