This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well, that doesn't sound so bad. Who cares about headlines? If that's what's at stake, why do people care so much?
...To speak more plainly, yes, that does seem like the likely immediate outcome. The long-term outcome that seems more relevant is that the CRT wins this argument, and we move significantly further from the happy futures.
Say rather I'm pointing out the incentives that currently exist. Specifically, I'm pointing out that moderate positions don't appear to be able to survive in the wild without deception, both of oneself and of others, while honesty leads to the embrace of extremism. I'm not endorsing lying, and in fact I argue that honesty is likely better for everyone involved. I do think it helps to understand why they think the lies are necessary, though.
There was a really good article I read here once talking about what amounted to a truce on race in the 90s-2000s, where white people tacitly agreed that racism was Very Bad, and black people tacitly agreed to stop constantly making accusations of racism, and the idea was that we'd try to fix the problems rather than arguing over who's fault they were. Only, it didn't actually work, because the problems didn't get fixed. Policy Starvation kicked in, and here we are.
Imagine the throttle lever of some vast steam-powered ship, a three-foot steel bar mounted to the floor. Push it forward, the ship speeds up, pull it back, the ship stops. Moderates are the people arguing over whether the best results will be secured by pushing the lever forward or back, or by how much. Extremists are the people who think the best results will come from ripping the lever off its mounting and wielding it as a club. System as a tool for mutual benefit, versus system as a weapon for mutual combat, no?
Rufo and Robinson are both moderates; they are trying to use the rules-as-written to secure what they consider to be positive, stable outcomes for everyone. They're trying to maintain something that at least roughly resembles what's commonly understood to be the status quo. The reason that last sentence is stacked with so many qualifiers, of course, is because that our common understanding of the status quo is mostly built on lies exactly like the ones you're chiding in your original post. The system (both the academic/educational system they're fighting over here, and our society more generally) runs on selective falsehood. Operating within its constraints consists of selecting which lies one will call out and which one will ignore, and especially on not breaching the very important lies all the serious, responsible people have collectively agreed to never, ever talk about.
Being moderates, both of them are liars: Rufo is lying about the past, claiming that Jefferson wasn't a white supremacist, and Robinson is lying about the present, claiming that Jefferson's white supremacy is at all relevant to the current situation. I'd argue that the significant difference is that Rufo's lie, if carried off, moves us away from serious conflict, while Robinson's lie moves us toward it, but I don't expect that argument to be persuasive to anyone on the other side; of course I'm going to argue that the lie that puts the burden on the other side is "better", while they're going to argue that the lie that puts the burden on my side is better; that's how people are. Of course I think I'm right and they're wrong; doesn't everyone? Charity doesn't solve the problem; it reveals the fact that there is no solution, at least in the general case. Hence blossoming extremism of various flavors, as we realize that compromise is not essential or often even possible, and so become more accepting of its absence. Or alternatively, as we grow disillusioned with the known lies of moderation, and turn to the untested claims of extremists.
Not so! Just insist that Robinson be honest as well, and recognize that selective honesty is not honesty. Or do you think that it is acceptably honest to start the conversation at "Was Jefferson a White Supremacist?", as though this were an isolated trivia question?
Well, take a look at the responses here; the moderate voices are the ones defending Ruso's equivocation, aren't they? "The Truth, at any cost" is not a moderate, fence-sitter ideal; they don't want large-scale upheaval, and most of them would like to bypass the whole question. It seems to me that Ruso's approach is more likely to get them there, were it to work. They could go back to talking about how Racism Is Very Wrong And We Must Fight Against It, and also about how Jefferson was a Great Man Who Founded Our Nation. What could be more moderate and fence-sitting than that?
In any case, how do you differentiate between Ruso losing the uncommitted by being a jerk, versus losing them because he's simply been shouted down? The argument you're making seems to be that nuance would have improved Ruso's actual position, helped him achieve his goals more easily. The space Ruso is operating in is quite large, and there's a lot of people in it. Can you point to some doing a better job that Ruso at what appear to be Ruso's goals? If Ruso is Trump, all sound and fury even at the compromise of the core mission, who's De Santis?
This post explains, with impeccable clarity, a dynamic that is prevalent but elusive to describe. I guess you could group it under the penumbra of kayfabe. I admit that it's a bit naive and colloquially autistic for me to plow through with a whole "akshually, logic" analysis without better acknowledging how much the treaty theatrics are pulling some of the incentives levers out of frame.
What did I say that would make you think I would be in favor of selective honesty? Of course I want him to be honest too. That said, I don't think you're characterizing this exchange fairly. First, that's not how Robinson started the exchange as I already pointed out, it started when Robinson explicitly asked about Rufo's CRT criticism. But assuming Robinson did indeed start the conversation with "Was Jefferson a White Supremacist?" whether or not it would be considered honest would depend on some context. If it was a panel discussion on "The Legacy of the Founding Fathers" then I think it's perfectly fair, if it was in the context of "Is The United States a Force For Good" then I would find it extremely slimy.
This is mostly an empirical question, and I admit I don't have enough evidence to adjudicate. The other high-profile individual operating within the vague "wokeness has gone too far" that could be a contrast is probably Jonathan Haidt, but that answer probably just shows how ignorant I am about this question. A lot of my response would be necessarily leaning upon (potentially delusional) optimism of wanting the 'good guys' to win (read: the honest ones, regardless of partisanship). Rufo is slightly more famous than I am, and fame is a necessary condition for any activist hoping to leave an impact so he's already way ahead and much better positioned to evaluate his decisions. There could be something similar to how the candidates that can win the general are the least likely to win the primary, but that's going to boil down to an empirical question I'm not equipped to handle.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link