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Culture War Roundup for the week of January 9, 2023

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The reliable car changes that dynamic, and all of a sudden you can basically live on any parcel of land within 30 or so miles of where you work.

Really good point. I want to extend this one out a bit further. Many of the desirable amenities of cities can be had in small chunks. How many people living in Staten Island are really partaking of the rich cultural opportunities afforded by a world class city on the average Tuesday?

Cars and trains means there is also a second ring of people who can easily take a day or weekend trip into those big cities, condense a lot of the benefit into 6 or 36 hours, and then leave back for somewhere cheaper and less congested.

Sorry to bump an old thread; got here from the Quality Contributions roundup.

There was a discussion in the comments on this ACX post a few months back: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-is-the-central-valley-so-bad, or rather in the comments on the "Highlights from the comments on" followup post: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/highlights-from-the-comments-on-the-3b1

The gist of the comment was that whenever you hear somebody talking about how they want to live in a city because of museums, or a symphony orchestra, or lots of rock concerts, etc., what they're really saying is "I want to live next to other smart, cultured, cool people like me". And what they hate about the suburbs isn't so much the lack of those cultural touchstones, as much as it is having to live next to people who are perfectly happy with just a house that has a yard and a garage and a grocery store and a few chain restaurants within an easy drive.

So, no, the "desirable amenities of cities" can't be had in small chunks, if the main desirable amenity you're looking for is to have neighbors you like, and if you're the kind of person who hates suburban normies.

By analogue: I (and my parents) overpaid for my college education, from a pure ROI perspective - I probably would be doing just as well in life if I went to a cheap state school instead of a fancy private college - but after the hell that was K-12 public education, I was desperate and determined to go to a college where I would be surrounded by other nerds, and willing to pay the freight. It wouldn't have been the same if I'd gone to a public university in the same city and occasionally took a bus over to the campus of the fancy private college to attend some free lectures.

So, I can be sympathetic to people who love living in cities (even if I don't understand them at all) but can't afford to. To a point. Prices are still the most efficient way we have of distributing scarce goods, and there is more demand to live in cities right now that there is available housing in those cities. If you can figure out a way to afford it, move to NYC or SFO and have fun. If you can't...well, I really want a Porsche Taycan, but I can't afford one, so....

Disclaimer: I am generally not a city fan, and probably coming at this from a place of motivated reasoning. Nevertheless.

The gist of the comment was that whenever you hear somebody talking about how they want to live in a city because of museums, or a symphony orchestra, or lots of rock concerts, etc., what they're really saying is "I want to live next to other smart, cultured, cool people like me". And what they hate about the suburbs isn't so much the lack of those cultural touchstones, as much as it is having to live next to people who are perfectly happy with just a house that has a yard and a garage and a grocery store and a few chain restaurants within an easy drive.

There's some sense in this, if you're talking like Boston or SF, but cities have normies too, a fucking ton of them. Plus an enormous number of underclass people who are even less nerdy than normies. If you just want a large enough total number of like-minded people, and you're willing to search out the diamonds in the rough in a massive, alienating metroplex, I guess? I have friends who commute 40-60 minutes out from the local major city for D&D night. Traversing NYC might take just as long, and you'll spend all of it packed in a subway with normies instead of isolated in a nice, normie-proof car. If you can't find a dozen friends in a 500k county, your odds don't seem much better in a 5M city unless you're looking for something super niche; the problem is more likely with you.

and if you're the kind of person who hates suburban normies.

I think this sort of thing is usually projection, and indicates the sort of "I think attending cultural events means I have a personality" hipster whose whining about cities is tiresome.

And the way this ultimately has to end, the only sustainable way, is for jobs to move to the second tier cities with the ability to grow massively. Waco instead of Dallas. Of course it’s also the only way no one even thinks of doing.

regardless of what people actually want.

The question is always which people's wants should be listened to? Should the people who live in a neighborhood's desire to keep their neighborhood the way it is be privileged over the desires of others who want to live there too? Should the neighbors be able to coordinate against "defectors" who want to cash in on the desires of those others by selling their property to a developer?

Why should people who live in a neighborhood have more say over the legal structure than people who live elsewhere?

Basically this argument boils down to “people who own property should have more rights than people who don’t.” I find that unpersuasive.

Having "skin in the game" of the existing area is generally-regarded as relevant. As are what the law generally calls "reliance interests." People in the past made decisions based on conditions at the time, and generally shouldn't have the rug pulled out from under them without some notice or a chance to recoup their investments.

Most housing restriction in the US isn’t top down though. It’s bottom up from local communities through their zoning boards and housing associations. Top down would be things like states overriding the ability for towns to make the decisions for themselves.