Tarnstellung
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User ID: 553
Maybe for some people gender dysphoria goes away, but for many it never does. "John 50" is a meme for a reason. I mean, the claim that it will go away eventually is unfalsifiable, but at some point you can be reasonably confident. Do you think there's some kind of fancy psychotherapy, or maybe medication of some kind, that could free more people of dysphoria, that is being slept on?
You don't need to tell me that; I arguably was one.
Define "never". Took over a decade for me.
I'm going to need you to clarify what exactly your condition was, because "phantom-limb gender dysphoria" doesn't mean anything. In any case, I can provide anecdotes of people "repping" (repressing) for over a decade until they gave in.
We are doing transitions with transition therapy as it really exists, not Culture Cycle clarketech. If transition therapy as it really exists doesn't help actual life outcomes, then it shouldn't be the standard of care (with obvious knock-on effects regarding public funding for it, regarding medical advice to dysphoria sufferers, regarding letting minors do it, and regarding family-court judgements).
It's imperfect now, but it's going to improve as technology advances, and it's only going to improve if we keep doing it. The fact that it's imperfect now and doesn't work for everyone is no reason to give up, otherwise we wouldn't have most of modern medicine.
Tarnstellung
12d ago
I meant during Trump's first term, which was the point of comparison in the article.
Tarnstellung
14d ago
No, they didn't. They just fraudulently counted people turned away at the border as "deportations".
Did they not do the same under Trump?
Tarnstellung
15d ago
Okay, I looked into it and there was actually an increase in the number of illegal immigrants staying long-term, but this was not due to relaxed enforcement, but due to an increase in the number of people attempting to enter illegally. They actually deported more during Biden's last year in office than in any year of Trump's first term. Regarding asylum:
President Biden issued an executive order that sharply limited asylum which along with Mexico's help led to a decrease in illegal border crossings.
The Wikipedia article Immigration policy of the Biden administration also has some interesting bits:
On June 4, 2024, Biden signed A Proclamation on Securing the Border to shut down the border if illegal crossings reached an average of 2,500 migrants a day in a given week.[15] Migrant encounters subsequently dropped down to 2020 levels.[16][17]
In February 2024 and again in May 2024, Republicans in the Senate blocked a bipartisan border security bill Biden had pushed for to reduce the number of migrants who can claim asylum at the border and provide more money for Customs and Border Protection officials, asylum officers, immigration judges and scanning technology at the border. (...) It was negotiated in a bipartisan manner and initially looked like it had the votes to pass until Donald Trump opposed it, citing that it would boost Biden's reelection chances.
So it seems he tried to curtail the influx, but it was too late.
Did Biden have an open borders policy? My understanding was that the policy was to turn away people trying to enter illegally, and deport them if they entered (recent arrivals, not people with established lives in the US), and there was no surge in the number of illegal immigrants entering and staying long-term.
Edit: I was wrong, see below.
Tarnstellung
15d ago
Well, then I guess we'll never know.
I found your post on Wikipedia talk:No Nazis, and I don't see why it was hatted when the surrounding threads were allowed. In case you were suggesting your post was deleted, it wasn't; it was archived, as is standard practice on talk pages with lots of activity.
Regarding the lab leak hypothesis, the consensus in the mainstream media early on during the pandemic was that it was baseless, so that's what Wikipedia reported. Wikipedia isn't really set up to deal with instances of the mainstream media lying. The entire thing is based on the assumption that they are reliable. See: Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. (Not that they I'm saying they were lying – I don't have a strong opinion on the lab leak hypothesis.) Your only hope is that eventually the media will correct the record. Sometimes the principle fails and the media do lie, but what's the alternative? Trusting random Substacks? If you're going to suggest evaluating the evidence yourself, it's worth noting that the publicly available evidence for the lab leak hypothesis is largely circumstantial or speculative, like the alleged implausibility of this happening right to the next virology institute.
Tarnstellung
15d ago
So, I mean, Alzheimer's is a specific condition, it's associated with elevated amyloid-beta levels, and aducanumab reduces amyloid-beta levels. We should rush out and give all the Alzheimer's patients aducanumab, right? No need for testing!
Except, wait, they did the testing and it shows that aducanumab doesn't actually slow cognitive decline, which is the outcome we actually care about. Turns out that having an explanation for how something could work doesn't necessarily mean that that explanation is correct or that it does work.
Incongruous genitalia or secondary sexual characteristics aren't associated with gender dysphoria, they are gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is the symptom to be treated, unlike in Alzheimer's, where dementia is the symptom to be treated, and it was thought that targeting amyloid-beta would treat it.
The statistics on transsexuals that transition are awful. It is possible that they're slightly less awful than the statistics for would-be transsexuals that are prevented from transitioning.
It's not realistic to expect trans people to be as happy as cis people on average. Trans women generally don't want to be trans women, they want to be cis women, they want to pass and have functioning reproductive systems, etc. But this is the best we can do with current technology. It is perfectly reasonable for someone to be unhappy about this. Ugly or infertile cis women are often unhappy, too.
I dunno, because TTBOMK nobody's actually done the RCT. Doing the RCT would be really hard due to trans activists sabotaging the control group, sure. That doesn't make not having it done less of a problem.
IIRC the Cass Review suggested an RCT on puberty blockers. Not sure what's going on with that, or what their stance is on proper HRT, or if any of this is relevant to adult patients.
I will note that I had full phantom-limb gender dysphoria and (mostly) grew out of it; it's not obvious to me that the "would benefit from transition" group can actually be distinguished from the "would be harmed by transition" group.
Again, many anecdotal reports of people who tried ignoring their dysphoria and it never went away.
Tarnstellung
17d ago
I've looked at the relevant policies and I see nothing that would preclude "Jack" from being included, especially if it is widely used in the press. If it's still her legal name, it's obviously acceptable, and if it was her legal name at the time of the arrest, a footnote a la Elliot Page would surely be acceptable. Have you tried adding it, ideally accompanied by an explanation on talk that cites this bit?
Former names under which a living person was notable should be introduced with "born" or "formerly" in the lead sentence of their main biographical article. Name and gender matters should be explained at first appearance in that article, without overemphasis. In articles on works or other activities of such a person, use their current name by default, and give another name associated with that context in a parenthetical or footnote, only if they were notable under that name.
I can help with the markup if you want. (I'm not going to do it myself because I don't want to link my Wikipedia account to this account.)
Tarnstellung
17d ago
Why does it matter if they're Black? Yes, a large portion would be Black, but presumably you'd want to neutralize the criminals of other races, too.
Tarnstellung
17d ago
almost certainly linked to the Biden migrant wave.
How? Is it not a disease that primarily affects livestock?
Tarnstellung
17d ago
I would say most of that falls under "disorder". Flowers may be removed due to vandalism, toilets may be closed and benches removed due to the homeless/drug addicts, etc. Most of this would be solved if you just locked 'em up: criminals in prison (harsher sentences), crazies in mental hospitals, drug addicts in rehab (and prison for repeat offenders). The rest is just a lack of funding, which is generally attributed to wealthier people moving to the suburbs and decreasing the city's revenue.
Regarding public transport specifically, most suburbs have terrible or nonexistent public transport, so that's certainly not a reason people move there. Denser cities generally have some kind of public transport, even if it's filled with people smoking every substance imaginable.
Tarnstellung
17d ago
Africans well are on video saying kill the boer and want to expel whites from S Africa.
Not the majority view in South Africa, even among Blacks.
And hey look we still see distinct voting patterns by ethnicities decades and centuries after they came here.
What point are you making exactly? The Irish, Italians and Germans shouldn't have been allowed in?
Tarnstellung
17d ago
Here I am. I believe modern American suburban living is terrible for the health of both people and the planet, but I understand that it's largely a reaction to unbearable crime rates and disorder in densely-populated areas, and that addressing them is the only way to get American families with children (as opposed to young adults who can put up with more) back in cities.
(Note: I'm not American.)
Tarnstellung
18d ago
How convenient that Blacks are too rowdy and criminal, Asians too boring and presumably not criminal enough, and your own race is just right.
Tarnstellung
18d ago
Singapore is by no means homogeneous. There were race riots in the 1960s. Malays are economically less successful than the Chinese, and probably more prone to crime. Housing has racial quotas to ensure every building is in line with the national makeup. None of this stops them from living densely.
Tarnstellung
18d ago
Google "immigrants commit less crime" and you'll find studies galore. We can have a look at one in particular if you like. The profile of immigrants in the US and Sweden is very different and it is entirely plausible that immigrants to Sweden commit more crime than natives and immigrants to the US commit less crime than natives.
Harvard discriminated against Asians in admissions for a reason. I don’t make the rules but even the elites decided Asians kill the vibes of a place.
The reason being they're extremely racist? I mean, what you are saying about Asians is racist by any reasonable definition.
Tarnstellung
18d ago
NIMBYism is not the fault of immigrants.
Immigrants in the US commit crime at a lower rate than natives. Native Black people do commit crime at a very high rate, which can ruin neighbourhoods, but that has nothing to do with immigrants.
San Francisco is a boring Asian town now which use to be like the people from Full House.
What exactly is the problem? Just the fact that they're Asian?
Tarnstellung
21d ago
For example, Bill de Blasio is not entitled to the same courtesy, even when he was born as Warren Wilhelm he was not yet notable.
Have you read the article? He'd already started political campaigning at the time he changed his name.
No one is worried that Bill might see his article, and become very sad when he is reminded of his dead name.
Does he actually have a problem with people knowing his former name? Are his political opponents liable to passive-aggressively refer to him as "Warren Wilhelm Jr."?
The aforementioned Jerma985 made a clear effort to hide his real name, and that was respected.
For another less notable but still Wiki notable case, wish of recently deceased Nicholas Alahverdian to be exclusively known as Arthur Knight is not respected too.
Of course a criminal who changed his name repeatedly to commit fraud and escape prosecution is going to have all his aliases listed. How is this in any way comparable to a trans person whose only notable activity was done under their new name?
Here is another relevant policy I found:
Caution should be applied when identifying individuals who are discussed primarily in terms of a single event. When the name of a private individual has not been widely disseminated or has been intentionally concealed, such as in certain court cases or occupations, it is often preferable to omit it, especially when doing so does not result in a significant loss of context. When deciding whether to include a name, its publication in non-media secondary sources, such as scholarly journals or the work of recognized experts, should be afforded greater weight than brief appearances in news stories. The appearance of names in citations, such as in newspaper headlines, is not restricted, but editors can consider finding alternative sources that do not use the name.[e] Consider whether the inclusion of names of living private individuals who are not directly involved in an article's topic adds significant value.
The presumption in favor of privacy is strong in the case of family members of articles' subjects and other loosely involved, otherwise low-profile persons. The names of any immediate, former, or significant family members or any significant relationship of the subject of a BLP may be part of an article, if reliably sourced, subject to editorial discretion that such information is relevant to a reader's complete understanding of the subject.[f] Names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced.
Tarnstellung
21d ago
Using someone's objectively real, legal name does not entail accepting that they are their stated gender. Someone could change their name for non-trans-related reasons, and you would presumably accept that.
That the new name is typically one used by the opposite gender is irrelevant. If someone had a gender-inappropriate name because their parents are weird – a boy named Sue or one of the many girls nowadays given traditionally masculine names – you surely wouldn't object to that, either.
If a trans person was not notable before transitioning, their former name is of no interest to the public and there is no reason to include it, and a good reason – namely, courtesy – to exclude it. Note that the fact that they are trans is allowed to be included, since that is clearly of interest to the public.
In fact, Wikipedia is pretty consistent on this. The same courtesy is extended to, for example, the streamer Jerma985 whose real name you won't find anywhere in his article. It formerly contained a fake real name, which he presents as his real name, presumably to protect his privacy, but even that has now been removed.
This isn't the only instance of Wikipedia being courteous with respect to non-notable people or things people did before they became notable. One Wikipedia policy says (emphasis mine):
Someone who does not wish to be the subject of a [biography article] may nominate it for deletion (...) Unless the subject clearly passes the general notability guideline (GNG) or is a current or former elected or appointed official, editors should seriously consider honoring such requests. Factors weighing in favor of deletion include a problematic article history, real-world harms identified by the subject, and the subject being only minimally notable or notable for only one event.
Tarnstellung
21d ago
If a trans person was not notable before transitioning, their former name is of no interest to the public and there is no reason to include it, and a good reason – namely, courtesy – to exclude it. Note that the fact that they are trans is allowed to be included, since that is clearly of interest to the public.
In fact, Wikipedia is pretty consistent on this. The same courtesy is extended to, for example, the streamer Jerma985 whose real name you won't find anywhere in his article. It formerly contained a fake real name, which he presents as his real name, presumably to protect his privacy, but even that has now been removed.
This isn't the only instance of Wikipedia being courteous with respect to non-notable people or things people did before they became notable. One Wikipedia policy says:
Someone who does not wish to be the subject of a [biography article] may nominate it for deletion (...) Unless the subject clearly passes the general notability guideline (GNG) or is a current or former elected or appointed official, editors should seriously consider honoring such requests. Factors weighing in favor of deletion include a problematic article history, real-world harms identified by the subject, and the subject being only minimally notable or notable for only one event.
Tarnstellung
21d ago
Yes, needlessly pissing off conservatives for zero benefit is a favourite pastime of the modern LGBT movement. See also: drag queen story hour. I would also add trans people in prisons and sports, though those are more a case of benefits existing but not outweighing the costs, as opposed to drag queen story hour and your proposed discussion of homosexuality in sex ed, where the benefits are not close, but exactly equal to, zero.
The downvotes may be from people who want conservatives to be pissed off because it makes it easier for them to win. An LGBT movement that picks its battles better would certainly accomplish more.
Tarnstellung
22d ago
How did the Boriswave happen? Did the government not realize the new immigration policy would increase immigration? Did they not notice the increase as it was happening? Did they not realize the increase would be politically unpopular? The last one seems particularly unlikely. Johnson is a skilled politician – he did win a general election, after all – so he surely wouldn't make such a mistake.
What about Truss and Sunak? I guess the former didn't have much time to implement policy changes, but the latter had two years, so all the same questions apply to him.
Tarnstellung
25d ago
What kind of accountability do you expect? She had no way of knowing. Unless you assume all gay men are paedophiles, which is blatantly false. Nearly all children raised by gay couples experience no sexual abuse. These cases are vanishingly rare.
Honestly, despite the impressive age of your account, you don't seem very adept at handling disputes. With all due respect, what were you expecting to achieve by posting on the talk page? No one is going to see your comment and get inspired to edit the article. The proper way to do this is to go in guns blazing: boldly make your edit and then explain it on talk. (I know you're aware of WP:BOLD, but I'm linking it for the benefit of any other potential readers.) Then the onus is on them to dispute it. (There was no clear preexisting consensus which you would be going against – the discussion from 2025 is ambiguous.) Instead, you got three replies, in order: one non sequitur, one agreeing with you and one disagreeing with you. Now there is no consensus either way, and you may have spoiled your chance to make the edit. You can still try, but it's going to be harder to justify now.
I speak from years of experience fighting excessive wokeness on Wikipedia. (While I acknowledge that the policy of not including the former names of people who weren't notable before transitioning may be regarded as "woke", I don't consider it excessive.) Yes, you're supposed to assume good faith, but in reality, when it comes to controversial topics like this, few people are actually editing because of a disinterested desire to spread knowledge. It's agendaposting all the way down.
You also didn't cite the guideline I quoted above, with the bolded bit, but apparently found another gender identity guideline? Not sure why there are two and they seem to disagree with each other. (There's a third one, too??? They need to get this sorted.)
The language of the guideline I quoted plainly supports keeping "Jack". I suppose you could dispute what it means to be "known under" a name, but if it's their legal name and is widely used in reliable sources, I would say they are "known under" that name. The guidelines talk about former names, but by all accounts, "Jack" was the current name at the time of reporting.
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