site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 23, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

My stance for a long time has been that, if you find the facial or bodily features typical to a particular ethnic group attractive, then that's no different to expressing a preference for redheads or petite women.

But I've met men who've explicitly said they're moving to Japan because they think Japanese women are more submissive than Western women, and they want a woman who'll submit to them and who they can control. I think there's something creepy about wanting a partner that you can control and dominate, and I think that believing that members of certain ethnic groups are more susceptible to being controlled and dominated is a perfect example of what activists are complaining about when they talk about ethnic fetishism.

The topic is a personal one for me, as I almost exclusively date foreign women (it's been nearly a decade since I was physically intimate, beyond kissing, with someone of my own ethnic heritage), a disproportionate share of whom have been Asian. I've been accused of racial fetishism on many occasions (with varying degrees of seriousness), but my counter-argument is essentially the above: it's not fetishism if you just like the way Asian women look, it's only fetishism if you find them desirable for creepy reasons rooted in ethnic stereotyping. (My girlfriend could be accused of lots of things but she's certainly not "submissive".) In my angrier moments I've suspected that some of the people accusing me of racial fetishism really just harbour some subconscious hostility to miscegenation that they won't cop to, so they're just dressing it up in progressive language.