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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   36181 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 24, 2022

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I actually find this kind of post completely useless. You need fact-based arguments between two parties, you are doing little more than making a final judgement in bold.

Not that it’s a wrong statement, it’s just this post moves away from an evidence-based discussion.

A fair criticism. What evidence would help, in your view?

I could have gone back and actually compiled some greatest hits, but I don't actually think spotlighting specific people would be particularly kind, or terribly relevant. "distributed motte and bailey" is a community problem, not an individual one. I tried to lay out a description of the subsidiary problems and offered an example of my own for what it looks like to make them.

The bold part comes from me noticing that I'm ignoring who picks the arguments. ymeskhout can't select weak arguments when he's responding unless he ignores some and focuses on others, and he's responded to enough of the claims that it doesn't look to me like he's cherry-picking weakmen.

If people are convinced in their heart of hearts that he's pulling a fast one, then it should be possible to make a coherent, supportable argument. Until such an argument is made, surly muttering and passive-aggressive sniping are poor form.

ymeskhout can't select weak arguments when he's responding unless he ignores some and focuses on others, and he's responded to enough of the claims that it doesn't look to me like he's cherry-picking weakmen.

To be fair it's just not possible for me to address every argument with equal measure, even if it happens to be within my wheelhouse. That I've cherry-picked weakmen always remains possible, and people should call me out if they see it. But even if I'm guilty of that, it would only be relevant if I'm using the weakmen as a way to bury the rest of the group. It would be wrong for me to claim I destroyed a battalion by citing my victory over some toddlers in a wrestling match. So to speak.

The issue here that I found acutely frustrating is the resistance on display in letting go of specific premises, not necessarily overall conclusions. To use a deliberately outlandish example, someone arguing "J6 defendants are treated unfairly" links to video footage of Hillary Clinton using a hot iron to torture a MAGA prisoner. I swoop in with my google-fu and point out that the video is actually a scene from a porn with surprisingly high production values. A satisfying ending to this story is possible: the person who linked the video can just say "Damn I was wrong!" and we both can just move on, skipping into the horizon.

There are several things that I think definitely should NOT happen. One, I cannot cite my deboonking to claim I've conclusively proven that J6 defendants are actually treated fairly. That wouldn't follow, especially if I'm deliberately ignoring other, much stronger arguments. Two, the person who posted the hot iron porn shouldn't refuse to admit they were wrong on that premise. This evasiveness serves absolutely no purpose in this space, and it's startlingly immature. And three, now also would not really be the time for them to pivot towards dredging up ancillary reasons for why their conclusion still remains correct.

The last point especially seems like a clear "arguments as soldiers" situation. I gather that people get reflexively defensive when they believe their conclusion is under attack, and so the instinctual reflex is to retreat into another defensive line (hey-o fortification metaphor!). Either way, I try to make an effort to announce what my aims are. You'll know if I'm coming after your conclusion.

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