This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I have yet to see any evidence that the text of the law matters at all. Not just in America but in every country, and not just laws but all written rules and regulations.
Personally, I suspect that approximately 99% of the population is functionally illiterate and operating on the level of the collective psychic unconscious. Rather than "reading" the "text" of the "laws," people simply synchronize their psychic emanations to establish what the majority of those present think the law ought to be, then act as if that was the text of the law. Only on very rare occasions does anyone bother to read what's written down, and when they do their ability to comprehend seems to be garbled by the still-present influence of the collective unconscious.
This is the only way I can explain the current interpretation of the Second Amendment of the US Constitution, among other things. If anyone was capable of reading it then surely they would understand the meaning of SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. Since clearly they do not understand and continue to infringe regardless, they must not actually be reading it.
What's the point of writing pages upon pages of legal documents when you know full well that it will only be used as fodder for willful misunderstanding? The text of the law doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is who is in the room deciding how to misinterpret that text to favor them.
The Republicans have finally overcome their confusion and started fighting on the real battlefield. They've put their own people in place, and now they're the ones deciding which laws to ignore. They're deporting citizens, violating privacy, closing down whole government departments, and they're having a blast. Why backtrack now?
Seriously though. In a country where DAs routinely refuse to prosecute shoplifters because they're ideologically opposed to the concept of law enforcement, what in the world gave you the impression that laws matter in any way?
"Cease quoting laws to those of us with swords." -Pompey Magnus
My argument is not that no laws are ever enforced. My argument is that law enforcers will do whatever they like and then justify it by whimsically reinterpreting the laws as they see fit. If the law matches what they want to do then that's fine, they can play along. If the law doesn't match what they want to do, it gets reinterpreted. Therefore, just counting up a bunch of instances in which the law was seemingly enforced means nothing, because there will be plenty of situations in which the text of the law lines up with what those enforcing the laws feel like doing that day. That doesn't change the fact that those same enforcers could just as easily have chosen not to enforce the law, if they felt like it.
The text of the law is a red herring. The person deciding how to enforce the law is the only one with real power.
It's an observation, not a theory. You can't falsify an observation.
However, I suppose if every single person who was involved in Epstein's pedophile ring was arrested, convicted, and imprisoned (this would include many prominent political figures) I would stop observing that law enforcement is arbitrary and that the pure text of the law has no ability to prevent the rich and powerful from doing whatever they want whenever they want.
Prosecutorial discretion means that prosecutors can freely choose whether or not to enforce the law. Police and FBI have similar latitude in what they choose to investigate. This discretion is used frequently and whimsically, and often has the effect of de-facto legalizing certain crimes for certain people (white people smoking pot, rich people fucking kids, shoplifting in San Francisco, etc). This isn't a theory to be falsified, this is a well-documented fact.
Is this actually true? This sounds false to me. Can you actually write a law that can be enforced without the need for a trial? If so, people are definitely sleeping on this hot new strategy.
I guess the answer is that you have ICE round people up and deport them to El Salvador without a trial. Which, amazingly, is the exact strategy the Trump administration has hit upon. And they didn't even need to pass any legislation to do it!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's not, when we can point to cases where the black-letter wording of the law absolutely did not matter. In some observable cases, passing laws was not sufficient, and in other observable cases, it was not necessary either.
Passing laws is expensive, and it is not obvious that doing so is worth the expense, given that they observably can be ignored. This calculation does not require perfect certainty that they will be ignored, only a suspicion that the likelyhood of them being ignored is high enough that they shouldn't be the current priority. Getting as much done as possible through the methods that do not require negotiation with allies of questionable loyalty, much less outright enemies, can improve one's position when those negotiations are subsequently conducted.
Our coalition is not hanging by a thread, it is in active civil war and has been since Trump arrived. My side currently appears to be winning that war, but we haven't won by any stretch of the imagination. The last generation of republican leadership actively campaigned for Harris in the last election.
And again, the advantage to passing laws is extremely marginal, and we know this from literally decades of observation from both sides of the culture war both here and in neighboring countries.
Further, and this is my own personal opinion, there is also the BATNA, which in this case is the forth portion of the back-and-forth wrenching we're doing on the fence-post of our current political system. By pushing the imperial presidency, we force a fight over the imperial presidency. To the extent that the positions again reverse upon the other side taking control, the legitimacy of those positions lessens dramatically. It is better for us to burn that legitimacy now attempting to secure our goals rather than leaving it for the other side to burn in pursuit of theirs.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link