site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 2, 2025

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

4
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

It's not like the desire is to see how large the debt can grow.

I understand that it sounds that way, but I dont think you believe that. Its just that I have not see how there is a benefit, and theres clearly supposed to be one, and getting to fund things with debt would be a candidate. So far, youve shown that just printing the deficit gets you the same effect as cutting expenditures to balance the budget, with some inflation along the way. I dont see the advantage in doing this. Now youve suggested a candidate for an advantage - you get to achieve full employment, either where the conventional method wouldnt, or in a better way. What are the details of that?

For one, you suggest seeing unemployment as evidence of too small a deficit. But in the previous model, there is no ongoing deficit in the equilibrium youre inflating towards. Secondly, the necessary expenditures to achieve full employment would likely be relative ones. And in what way is the equilibrium of your strategy better than just spending enough for full employment, and raising taxes to balance the budget?

Not entirely related to the rest, but conventional theory is that borrowing is less inflationary than money printing. Do you disagree?

conventional theory is that borrowing is less inflationary than money printing. Do you disagree?

Definitely, primarily because the separation is just incoherent.

In the conventional view, you call central bank reserve account balances "money" which is evidence of "printing", while you call treasury t-bills "debt" which are evidence of "borrowing". But they are both are just government liabilities which promise to pay nothing in redemption other than other government liabilities, and which pay the policy rate of interest. To make it funnier, these are literally both types of accounts that the central bank runs on their books, because the Fed does the banking on behalf of the Treasury. You can call them checking & savings accounts at the government bank, although they pay the same interest, and you can freely swap between these accounts (you're never 'stuck' holding them). To call only one of these accounts "money" takes a special kind of incoherence.

Physical paper/coin money cash is just a bearer receipt version of the electronic reserves. That's the only government money that doesn't pay interest now, as a tiny fraction of the money supply, held for some types of convenience.

The MMT people often try to be more precise and avoid the word 'money' because it can lead to confusion sometimes, but I just plow ahead and risk it. The clear definition of money from what we use now and even throughout history is "transferable credit". So we can just talk about money as IOUs. Someone issued a financial liability, which someone else gets to hold as their financial asset. A bank balance is your valuable asset because it's the bank's debt. A reserve account balance is the bank's valuable asset because it's the central bank's debt. A $5 bill is your asset because it's the central bank's liability. Always credit-debt relationships, the issuer owing the holder.

So I'm perfectly happy to call the outstanding reserve balances part of the "government debt", just like I call treasury bonds/bills/securities "money". These are all both money and debt.

So issuing/printing new reserves or issuing/printing new t-bills, which are nearly perfect equivalents, no, they would not have different inflationary impacts. The size of the government deficit is the size of the amount of money being printed, and it always has been.

Many mainstream economists like Summers & Krugman got to this a bit late, in the 2010's, when they reconsidered that 0% government debt instruments were essentially 'money'. So they started reconsidering what they thought they knew about 'monetizing the government debt' and QE, etc. I'm not sure if they ever caught up to the fact that in 2008, central banks switched to paying interest on reserves directly, making 'money' look just like securities even when we're not in a 0% interest environment.

So far, youve shown that just printing the deficit gets you the same effect as cutting expenditures to balance the budget, with some inflation along the way.

But in the previous model, there is no ongoing deficit in the equilibrium youre inflating towards.

I'm sorry I couldn't really parse what you were saying in these 2 paragraphs. That balancing the budget was the same as running a deficit, or somehow it had the same outcome in a particular way?

And in what way is the equilibrium of your strategy better than just spending enough for full employment, and raising taxes to balance the budget?

Well if anyone is ever saving money, then by identity someone else must be dis-saving an equivalent amount (running down prior savings, or just issuing debt). Because it's all zero sum. In aggregate, what we find is that people like to accumulate monetary savings over time (even with populations that aren't growing I think). So unless your hypothetical has some way to stop that, that saving is a leakage in aggregate demand which will not let you get to full employment without the government being in deficit to supply the desired savings. A government balanced budget means they are draining out exactly as much money as they're injecting in to the economy.

Im not entirely on board with treating a simple dollar bill as an IOU. I understand your point about it gaining value from being usable for future taxes, but the bill does not, at the point of issuing, create any obligation for the future. "I owe you tax relief, the amount and whether thats relevant at all to be decided, by me." is not a financial instrument, because thats true of everything. Nothing prevents me from demanding taxes in yuan (or kilos obsidian, or literally whatever) instead of dollar tomorrow, so how are dollars my debt, and yuan arent?

Other question: If the government borrowed in a foreign currency or gold rather than dollars, would that be inflationary?

I also notice that you never say whether somethings is in nominal or real terms, whats up with that?

In aggregate, what we find is that people like to accumulate monetary savings over time

This might be the crux. If people want monetary savings to keep increasing in real terms, that would mean theyre willing to work for more than theyll consume, indefinitely. Thats certainly a disagreement with the classical model, but its not really over something monetary. In that case, I can see how you can grow the economy by just spending the money they dont. A few remaining disagreements:

First, I dont think this leads to full employment necessarily. Firstly, because while more demand can be expected to increase employment, but there neednt be any finite amount of it where employment becomes full. Secondly, because the willingness to increase real saving per unit of time is propably limited, and drawing on that full amount might not be enough for whatever you want to do.

Second, even if savings increase over the long term, there will be fluctuations. If a lot of people suddenly want to spend money that youve already spent for them, what happens?

Last, people want savings, but why would they want dollar denominated savings over non-monetary assets? If people just buy index instead of sitting on money, does that already do what you want to do?