site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 28, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think a lot of men get upset that looks (eg height, face) are inherently unfair for men

A lot of the complaints I see online are based on perceived double standards. Height vs weight is a cliche in the gender wars.

Incels are the ones that emphasize looks the most and imo it's backwards. They're upset at failing , so they construct an ego protection ideology that states that looks are all that matter (therefore it's not their fault - everyone else is shallow). They did not start out believing it was all-important.

whereas women kind of grow up understanding that looks are unfair and make their own peace with it.

Except the entire "body acceptance" movement and complaining about "unfair beauty standards". People upset by basic inequity in looks exist across the spectrum but the female half seems to be vastly more visible and prestigious.

A lot of women realize early on that they’re not going to bag 6’5 billionaire muscled Princeton lacrosse players from romance novels, but on the male side the realization that they’re not going to get a hot influencer type takes time.

This is basically the inverse to TRP's "women always want a high value male and many just refuse to lower their standards instead of dying alone" theory. Some of them also say that men are relatively simple about their needs (the implication being that women are almost immorally fussy about dating), just to make the parallel stronger.

I think both of these are dubious and, frankly, there seems to be an element of spite to them. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but I think most people don't hang all their hopes on dating an Instamodel or having Tom Hiddleston make them eggs in the morning before handing them a Centrum and let this actively ruin their actual prospects.

Sure, if you ask them that's what they'd want. If they're just consuming a fantasy (which is what Onlyfans and ads are) then that's what they'll buy but the calculus of real life speaks pretty loudly to most of us, very early.