This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Dude, I made a very simple point: You said: "far less direct entanglement has been treated as a violation of rights as a government actor in other environments," and I simply pointed out that the case you cited for that argument is actually authority for a different theory of state action, i.e., public function, not entanglement. I even included a link to the CRS report, which discusses the correct theory. You are the one who wants to go on and on about the nature of the state action doctrine, etc, etc, etc.
And why would I possibly want to have that conversation with you, when you make statements like "can we notice that I'm pointing to the differing results for the broader state actor doctrine, despite worse behavior," when whether something is "worse" is not a relevant analytical category? That is the type of argument that laymen or dilettantes make about legal issues. Why would I want to waste my time having a discussion with someone like that?
You're having this discussion instead? So I guess there's a values-signals question.
More broadly, though, because the law can not be the source of ethics, nor can explaining it at sufficient length but without a strong and consistent foundation change anyone's minds regarding just action. "Worse" may be the domain of dilettantes on legal issues (and, I'll admit, under-specified and vague for ethical or norms-based ones), but ignoring problems like it doesn't just elevate everyone else to an ivory tower of endless continuing legal education; it undermines trust in an important institution.
Yes, the question of whether what the FBI / Twitter did was normatively wrong is a different question than whether it was legal. Duh. But your original statement that I commented on was about the legality of their actions, not about the ethics of their actions. And your claim that your are "pointing to the differing results for the broader state actor doctrine, despite worse behavior here" was a claim about the law, not about ethics; it was a claim that whether state action exists hinges on the "wrongness" of the action. That is a claim about a legal question -- i.e, what factors are relevant to the determination of whether state action exists.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link