site banner
PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   3540 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 14, 2025

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

My coworker's argument is that the Romance languages would be dialects of Latin if they all used the same speech-independent writing system (as they used to when they were called Vulgar Latin)—but they use phonetic writing systems, so they're languages instead.

Your coworker is talking complete nonsense. Hanja use in modern Korean rounds to zero (an approximate analogy might be the use of Roman numerals in modern English) and was historically incompatible with its grammar, hence the development of Hangul. By your coworker's logic, English speech should fall under the Arabic language because we borrow their speech-independent writing system for numerals. Japanese use of Kanji or Korean use of Hanja is basically the same concept, extended from exclusively numerals to about 2000 additional ideas.

To say either Japanese or Korean therefore falls under "Chinese language" is the same kind of idiocy as saying "English is actually Arabic".

Hanja use in modern Korean rounds to zero

He said was referring specifically to the Koreans who live in China. The Wikipedia pages for them (English, Chinese, Korean) don't mention whether they use hanja, but I guess he thinks they do.

Japanese use of Kanji

I didn't say anything about Japanese. He doesn't think that Japanese counts as using the same writing system as Chinese.

He said was referring specifically to the Koreans who live in China.

If he's talking about Yanbian, from Wikipedia:

In Yanbian Korean Autonomous Prefecture in China, local newspaper Northeast Korean People's Daily published the "workers and peasants version" which used all-hangul in text, in addition to the existing "cadre version" that had mixed script, for the convenience of grassroots Korean people. Starting on April 20, 1952, the newspaper abolished the "cadre version" and published in hangul only. Soon, the entire publishing industry adopted the hangul-only style.

So effectively no real use of Hanja there either. My understanding is that these people are basically Korean-Mandarin bilingual in the same way as any other linguistic minority.

He doesn't think that Japanese counts as using the same writing system as Chinese.

Now I'm even more confused. His claim is that forms of communications are dialects if they all used the same speech-independent writing system, but doesn't think this applies to Japanese? Japanese speakers are significantly better equipped to understand a cut-paste Chinese written sentence than Korean speakers.

So effectively no real use of Hanja there either.

I'll point out that error to him tomorrow.

Now I'm even more confused.

Well, maybe I'm misremembering. I asked him about his views on Mandarin and Cantonese today, but we discussed Japanese many months ago. I'll ask him about Japanese again tomorrow. But he may just reiterate that I can't properly understand the situation without learning Chinese, as he told me today when I tried comparing Serbo-Croatian (a speech-first language with two different writing systems that may eventually diverge into two different languages) to Chinese (a writing-first language with two different speech systems that may eventually diverge into two different languages).

Tomorrow edit: Direct quote: (exasperated but smiling) "Stop discussing things that you don't even know what it means!" [sic]

Tomorrow edit: Direct quote: (exasperated but smiling) "Stop discussing things that you don't even know what it means!" [sic]

So basically he realizes he was full of shit and isn't happy with being called out. It's not often that something sounds so stupid it lives rent-free in my head for more than a day, so congrats to him I guess.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats