site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   34563 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Bottom New Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Even the Twitter link you provided to Florida's specified objections is a Tweet deriding those objections as obvious wrongthink. All I did was make the hypocrisy explicit.

As it happens, I did not read the Twitter thread. I posted that link because that is where I found the letter. It is not on the FL DOE's news page, nor does it come up when I search for "African American Studies" in their webpage.

To the best of my understanding, this is only if CRT topics are taught about, not if they are presented as correct. As far as I have seen, nothing in the AP readings seems to accommodate the possibility that any of these claims are wrong.

As I have pointed out repeatedly, the AP course description accommodates the possibility that they are wrong by leaving it up to the teacher to decide how to cover the material.

Presumably one cannot assume that there will not be any free response questions on the topics at issue

Obviously. The point is that your assumption that the test requires parroting of ideas re the topics is based on a mistaken premise.

Look, I love to tell my own students how intrinsically valuable learning is, too, but I am not stupid. The vast majority of them take my classes because I am an obstacle imposed between them and where they want to be. Students who take AP classes out of nothing but inquiring interest are lovely and wonderful, but if you're not doing your best to help your students score well on their AP exams, then you are doing at least many, and probably most of them a grave disservice. They would not be doing the work that AP courses demand, if they did not anticipate a reward in the form of legible credit towards their upcoming university matriculation and education.

Who said anything about "nothing but inquiring interest"? A course that improves the skills students will need to succeed in college is a course which provides rewards to students, even if it does not provide the more tangible, yet far less valuable, reward of college credit.

As it happens, I did not read the Twitter thread.

"I didn't read the stuff I linked everyone to" is certainly some kind of response, sure.

The point is that your assumption that the test requires parroting of ideas re the topics is based on a mistaken premise.

I didn't assume anything--I only identified an uneliminated possibility. The possibility itself was objectionable. The College Board's failure to eliminate the possibility is where the objection is grounded. Thus "it's merely possible, not certain" is no answer at all.

Who said anything about "nothing but inquiring interest"? A course that improves the skills students will need to succeed in college is a course which provides rewards to students, even if it does not provide the more tangible, yet far less valuable, reward of college credit.

Sorry, I charitably assumed there was an interesting point underneath what I took to be kind of a silly one (firing AP teachers for teaching toward success on the AP test). The putative intrinsic value of learning seems like at least a potentially interesting topic.

The idea that incrementally improving general study skills is somehow a more valuable reward than college credit seems odd to me, given that the point of success in college is, for most students, more college credit! In particular, AP courses are a chance to cut down on the number of years students need to spend paying university tuition. If our time is the most valuable thing we humans have, then helping your students secure credit in advance is surely at least as valuable as incrementally improving their study skills--which many will never use again after college, alas. (And if you do think that is tragic, then of course--see my point about the intrinsic value of learning.)

"I didn't read the stuff I linked everyone to" is certainly some kind of response, sure.

The link was to the FL DOE document posted there. Why would I read the idiot comments re the document on some Twitter feed, if the point was to provide the document itself? The real mystery is why you think it was some sort of "gotcha" to note the existence of said idiot comments. How are they relevant to the issue?

I didn't assume anything--I only identified an uneliminated possibility. The possibility itself was objectionable. The College Board's failure to eliminate the possibility is where the objection is grounded. Thus "it's merely possible, not certain" is no answer at all.

Except that my entire point is that the FL DOE claims that it is certain, and that they are wrong.

The idea that incrementally improving general study skills is somehow a more valuable reward than college credit seems odd to me, given that the point of success in college is, for most students, more college credit! In particular, AP courses are a chance to cut down on the number of years students need to spend paying university tuition. If our time is the most valuable thing we humans have, then helping your students secure credit in advance is surely at least as valuable as incrementally improving their study skills--which many will never use again after college, alas. (And if you do think that is tragic, then of course--see my point about the intrinsic value of learning.)

I didn't say that it is more valuable.* I simply noted that even a student has no intellectual interest in anything at all, but rather whose only goal is getting a college degree as easily as possible might well enroll in a class which improves academic skills even if it did not offer a chance to acquire college credit.

*In the eyes of the student, that is.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats