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What is the difference between him jerking off in front of the womenfolk and the womenfolk giving him a handjob?
From all reasonable accounts, it seems to me that C.K had 'consent'. Unlike 2rafa, I think that is the crux of the matter as far as value judgments are concerned (I'm not very "trad"). With consent, the ladies had a weird sexual encounter, without consent they were victims of a sex crime. I understand that whether there was mutual consent or not is fuzzy and that's what makes this a scissor issue, but given the track record and incentives of other #MeToo victims, I would probably side with C.K's retelling of the story here.
Bill burr - No means no is a relevant video for this conversation. All I want to ask the ladies who supposedly regretted C.K. having done what he did is, why didn't you yell "NO!"? Doing that changes nothing, fair enough, but the fact you didn't do it is not normal human behavior towards a threat. If some lunatic is about to swing an axe at me, I will yell "stop don't kill me!", he might kill me anyways because he's a lunatic axe murderer, but me giving in without a semblance of a fight would be suspicious.
Perhaps uncharitably, in that instant they decided that there might be some advantage to them if they did not say "No!," and in retrospect realized that said advantage never materialized or wasn't worth the price they had paid for it. Seems to me like this is what is called "learning from experience," and calls for self-reflection rather than outward accusation.
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You might but then his (as you say) borderline pervy behavior would not have been accepted whether it was morally correct or not. Value judgments are subjective so as the people observing the behavior change, so to do the judgements and outcomes. In Woodstock he might have been ok, in a small rural town he might have been run out of town, in Northern Ireland back in the day he might have been kneecapped.
All of them are sub-judicial sanctions dished out by whatever community is involved. What Louis thinks is pretty much irrelevant in every case though, he isn't the one that is making the value judgement.
I think you are speaking past my point.
I am saying is, Were the women totally against what happened or not, in short, the angle I am pushing is that what if they were okay, or more than okay with him jerking off? But, claimed otherwise later for reasons.
What if it was a mutually agreed upon sexual activity?
My point is that this doesn't matter. Cads who seduced women into sex didn't get let off because they said yes. If you breach behavioral norms, you're in trouble regardless. In this case jerking off in front of people in a work environment EVEN if those people said yes is seen as bad. If he had picked up women in a bar and had consent then he would have been in a safer position.
If my BDSM proclivities get released there is a good chance I get fired or ostracized despite the fact I am meticulous about consent. Consent isn't the driving factor here.
Maybe prior to the sexual revolution, when women expected to have their sexual opportunities managed by family gatekeeping and prudish societal mores. When the oppressive nature of that paradigm was rejected and women claimed to want first-hand control over their own sex lives, it became their responsibility. If they feel that they are inadequately equipped to exercise this responsiblity, it's up to them to call for a return to the old model, but they won't, so they must prefer greater vulnerability. Why is any of this the cad's fault now? They are keeping it simple, at least.
Again its not about fault, it's about perception. Doesn't matter how hypocritical you think it is. You can have an oppressive paradigm and women's control, it can be entirely incoherent (not saying it is, but it can be). It doesn't have to make any sense whatsoever. I am not saying that is good, I am saying that is the situation.
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I keep on forgetting that consensual sexual acts between adults from the same workplace or career is Taboo in America, and in certain cases, the workplace is not a physical place but anywhere where you are with your coworkers, including a hotel room.
I'm being partially sarcastic.
Its not just the work part, the just jerking off part codes flasher in a park, not high status guy trying to fuck.
If he had asked them out to dinner, then taken them back to his hotel for sex, he looks more normal and less creepy.
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