This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I'm not OP, but would you mind clarifying whether you personally in fact believe that the racial difference in audit frequency is due to the IRS following perverse incentives, and if so which perverse incentives? And, if you do, do you believe that astrolabia does not believe that the disparate results are causally downstream of the IRS following the incentives which you believe are perverse?
Because I predict that both you and astrolabia believe that
The IRS is more likely to audit tax returns where there is a high probability of a small amount of easy-to-prove fraud than tax returns where there is a small probability of a large amount of hard-to-prove fraud, even when the expected monetary value of prosecuting the rare annoying high-value fraud would be higher
If you were to segment tax returns by (race of filer, was EITC claimed, had obvious inconsistencies), then audit frequency would vary based on whether there were obvious inconsistencies when holding (race of filer, was EITC claimed) constant.
Audit frequency would not vary significantly based on race when holding (was EITC claimed, had obvious inconsistencies) constant.
Holding (was EITC claimed) constant, (had obvious inconsistencies) would vary significantly by race.
I don't think "the IRS follows perverse incentives" and "propensity to have obvious, easily provable inconsistencies when filing taxes varies by race" are mutually exclusive hypotheses, and honestly I don't expect that either hypothesis is even particularly contentious (unless you make the stronger assertion that the rate of inconsistencies varies due to genetics rather than education quality or other environmental factors, but then you're just dealing with the standard "HBD discourse is brain poison" problem).
Yes, I agree with all 4 points. I think you're also right that HlynkaCG agrees with me on these points.
I think what happened here is that, HlynkaCG saw me defend discussion of the possibility that there might be group differences in behavior (possibly due to poverty, or whatever the palatable explanation of the month is, I didn't say), saw this (correctly) as allowing more avenues for arguments in favor of HBD, and became mind-killed.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm sorry, I never raised the issue of genetics, I was only talking about group differences in behavior in general. I also heartily agree that the IRS could easily be following perverse incentives. I have no idea what you mean about Hegelian dynamics here, nor how individual character + agency precludes discussions of average differences in behavior between groups, which the article raised as a possibility.
I would really love it if you'd read my first reply again - I wasn't claiming that group differences explain anything here. I was saying that it's astounding the variety of behaviours people will display if prompted to acknowledge, in principle, the possible existence of average group differences (genetic or otherwise). Do you think such differences are possible?
Do you really get the runaround on those sorts of questions? Because in my experience, if you give social sciences types any opportunity to talk about factors that could affect metrics of success by race / gender / immigration status / whatever, they will happily talk your ear off for hours. They are unlikely to mention genetic factors (outside of epigenetics and "did you know about DNA methylation [...] response to stress"), but that will not stop them enthusiastically brainstorming hypotheses and what studies one might run to test those hypotheses for as long as you're willing to listen.
I don't get to talk with many social scientists, but the two I've talked to about these things were so appalled by the mere suggestion that I quickly shut up. But for example, a Bayesian ecologist told me that his prior on there being differences in behavior driving differential arrest rates was 0 (I'm not even sure what that's supposed to mean). A mathematician who said epigenetic trauma was an explanation for poor black outcomes, astoundingly also suggested that Jews' excellent outcomes after the holocaust were also due to epigenetic trauma. Like, that hypothesis wouldn't have even occurred to me in a million years.
The behavior I've seen is consistent with people sensing that they are discussing something sacred and not to be questioned. I've made my peace with this - except when it comes up in relation to policy discussions. In those cases, I wish we had some galaxy-brained norm about separation of church and state that we could invoke. In fact, that might be a great contribution to diffusing the culture wars - some version of "Render unto the racists..."
It seems likely to me that the slaves embedded the learnings into their culture that hard work and investment into education is rather pointless, while Jews adopted the survival strategy of high-value autonomous jobs like doctors and musicians. Basically, before modern licensing you could just pack up and leave when doing those jobs, if things got spicy. And the better a doctor/musician/etc you are, the better the chance you get spared. Even in the extermination camps, top-tier musicians were often spared and got better treatment.
None of this requires (epi)genetics, but can simply have become embedded in the culture (although culture can obviously impact mate selection, like the stereotype of Jewish parents demanding that their daughters come home with a doctor).
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link