This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Best run Govt. of the last 50 years for sure.
With that said, there are credible arguments I could be a devil advocate for.
How much of the spoils are experienced by the workers ? Intense Darwinian competitions means margins are paper thin. Winning comes with none of the stability or lifestyle perks that make economic victories desirable to Americans. Chinese winners get rewarded with more competition, sleepless nights and even narrower margins. Perpetual crunch-time sounds like hell, and Chinese citizens appear to agree. When given the chance, they hop over toe western companies that offer better life-style at the risk of slower innovation.
Post great leap forward there wasn't much culture or heritage left. Yes, China has a recognizable civilizational identity that's distinct from the west. But, modern China has little in common with erstwhile Chinese culture or heritage.
You'll never know what they're willing to do, because the Chinese never reveal their true thoughts to a westerner. I've had close PRC Chinese friends and they refuse to give me even a hint on what they think about the PRC or Xi. Get them drunk, high, vulnerable, doesn't matter. I don't know if it is brainwashing or defense against the dark arts. But, one things for sure. Neither you nor I know what the will of the Chinese people actually is.
This is where it's important to draw lines. Is PRC China Xi's China, Deng's China or Mao's China. Where does the lineage begin ? Mao's consolidation, state capacity and land reforms were necessary for Deng's economic liberalization. If it starts at Mao, then 30 million deaths is not 'foregoing some comfort'. That's the greatest genocide since the Mongol conquests. It's simply impossible to talk about PRC China without talking about a Holocaust x 5 genocide event.
Japan, SK, Taiwan and Singapore have all done better than PRC China per-capita. If their genetic makeup is mostly similar, then PRC China's achievements don't seem THAT incredible.
More options
Context Copy link