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Well actually negative rights is a pretty defined concept. Coordinating violence is almost always used to remove or restrict NRs from people.
What negative rights is this David Bowie themed party removing from SA victims?
The 2nd amendment very clearly is designed, in part, for an organized militia, so this is about an unamerican statement as it comes. If anything the anti-ICE movement should avail themselves of their 2nd Amendment rights and have armed protestors protecting their right to protest. Obnoxious as they are.
I disagree - all "positive rights" can be reframed as negative by considering nth order effects.
The argument the activist gave was a bad one - as you said, he could just not go to the party.
But what about: Corvos was encouraging society to view David Bowie as not a bad person, undermining feminism / "rape culture", and making it more likely for people to vote for right wing things, making it more likely for laws to be passed that oppress the activist. Therefore Corvos was infringing on his friend's negative rights.
Anything can be reframed as anything considering nth order effects. The butterfly effect is supreme. Doesn't mean it is relevant for discussion
Your example requires 4th order effects? I think anything past 2nd order starts to get into low probability land. It's just as likely that Corvos's friend hating on a David Bowie party, alienates the moderates due to the pettiness, drives them to the right, making it more likely for laws to be passed that oppress the activist. Therefore the activist having a shit behavior around negative rights is causing them to lose negative rights. Also a 4th order effect.
This seems totally orthogonal to whether positive/negative rights are meaningful. You are arguing that on net, the activist's behaviour is bad for their cause, which may be true.
But I am just pointing out that the decision to not go along with their demands counts as a violation of a negative right. Because that specific 4th order effect I gave is a negative right that is being violated.
I gave an example of how going along with their example violates their own negative rights. Apparently you can violate people's negative rights for flapping butterfly wings, which means the concept of nth order effects being actual violations is ridiculous. Reducto Ad Absurdum
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Yes, but the problem is that anything can be defined as a negative right given sufficient desire. In this case it was the right not to be deeply harmed and re-traumatised by the rape culture inherent in celebrating the life of a man who once slept with an underage groupie (yes, that was the literal argument). Trans people have the right not to be genocided by people using the wrong pronoun. Etc. etc.
Fair's fair, you got me. I'm a Brit who regards the American bill of rights as being broadly an insane document drafted by some intelligent but rather blinkered revolutionaries who could not conceive of an America 100/200/300/400 years old. It worked sort of okay for ruling a small number of extremely patriotic, highly confederated Anglo Americans but survived beyond that through a combination of unusual geography and very selective reading and interpretation, which is the Federal Government imposes limits on speech every day, why it interferes in commerce, etc.
None of which is a refutation of your point, of course. I do note that said militia would be fairly unlikely to support 2nd amendment rights as pursued by say the NRA.
To my current eternal despair. Who knows maybe the silver lining will be that the left realizes the need for strong 2nd Amendment rights to protect against "Nazi Authoritarian Governments". I'm not holding my breadth. But the point of principles is to hold them regardless of costs. Otherwise they aren't really principles are they?
You have no negative right to restrict someone else. You are not being forced to go to that party and its existence does not constitute a restriction on you. I know this isn't your argument and that tortured lefties make stupid arguments but they get away with it because no one shuts them down.
Your position is internally consistent. I don’t think I agree - the costs in death and internal disorder seem concrete to me while the benefits seem more theoretical - but that’s by the by.
I did shut it down, at some personal cost. But you cannot prove the assertion that ‘you are not being forced to go to that party and its existence does not constitute a restriction on you’ to somebody who claims that refusing to change the theme after their complaint is now a positive choice to exclude them.
It’s power against power, vote against vote, and sadly you don’t always have the power or win the vote.
Yes unfortunately some people are incapable of not being narcissists. I am increasingly on the opinion that universal suffrage was a mistake. A section of the populous will never be anything more than knuckle dragging apes.
I have no solution to that at this time. Other than recognizing that perfect is the enemy of good. And intelligent people can understand the concept of a negative right and the ironclad boundary between that and a positive right.
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