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But that's not the question, the question is that if you mitigate the consequences of your actions. If you do then you are just engaging in special pleading around people mitigating the consequences of their actions, specifically around abortion.
I've been very consistent. My stance is unequivocally bodily autonomy + "taking a known risk does not automatically creates an unlimited duty to endure every consequence of that risk".
A risk of sex is pregnancy. Just because I had sex does not mean I have an unlimited duty endure all the risks of sex. If I am afflicted by one of those risks, I am allowed to mitigate or even solve it. I can get treated for STDs, I can get therapy, and I can get an abortion. Common mitigation solutions for risks of sex.
Ok I took a risk, a bad thing happened. I now am going to mitigate the consequences of that risk to the best of my ability. Looks like an abortion maximally mitigates that consequence. I'm getting an abortion. Very straight forward. You are the one who is ignoring this logical flow, because you want to mitigate your consequences but control how other people are allowed to mitigate theirs, which is hypocritical.
Cool, it can enjoy that right outside of my body.
I accept the risk, and then choose to mitigate the consequences as EVERYONE is allowed to do.
You pretty much want to force me to accept this risk. To you having sex -> pregnancy, and if I get pregnancy, "that sucks but you need to endure it". I, in your view, am required to endure 100% of the risks for actions I take with no allowed mitigations. However, you don't apply that across the board, to every action. Just this one. Hence special pleading around abortion.
Question or not, it’s the reality of the matter, regardless. What you’re failing to come to grips with is that it isn’t a debate whether or not you have to liberty to have an abortion, the question is whether or not it’s moral for you to do so.
Which isn’t the debate. You and I aren’t having the same conversation. The framing of the other side has everything to do with the notion that your right to enjoy sex doesn’t allow you to murder an innocent human being.
To you all you’re doing is “getting an abortion.” To others you’re committing murder. This is where the division is between us and it keeps going unaddressed by you.
That would be relevant if it weren't for the fact that people who view abortion as immoral are absolutely trying to ban it. That makes this as much a debate about the liberty to have an abortion AND whether or not its moral to do so. Maybe don't try to legislate your morality into law if you don't want to have to fight others trying to keep their liberty.
Apparently because you are unwilling to actually address any ideas around it. You pretty much refuse to accept even a neutral frame around this. It's your moral framework is the only moral framework.
I'm going to tap the sign again. Christianity is NOT the universal moral framework. Define innocent, and Define why children are innocent, and then why don't you define why a clump of cells is considered human. Why isn't a sperm cell human or an egg? You just assume your worldview is the default and its not.
And if I fail to recognize this as murder? What evidence do you have that I am murdering another human being? Murder has meaning, as does human being. I've been very charitable granting you the basic frame to define human, and you've taken that charity and repaid none of it back, and taken it a fucking mile instead. So I retract that charity, prove all these terms you've so carelessly thrown around actually mean what you believe they mean.
When abortion advocates go into legislating the murder of unborn children, don’t turn around and tell those you oppose you “you can’t legislate morality.” If you don’t think people should walk about the streets with a sense of vigilante justice about them and decide to act on their liberty to murder other people for transgressions real or imagined, be consistent both ways.
Not once have I seen from you an argument that a fetus isn’t a human being in any way wouldn’t be difficult for you. I said as much earlier and received no direct response to it.
Now you’ve got the correct frame of the discussion. What I’m asking you is to do is define all these terms in a way that circumscribes only a fetus; and doesn’t leave the door open to ending the lives of massive amounts human beings after the fact. I can define all these terms in ways that are consistent because my moral framework isn’t only accurate (naturally, as I’d argue), it’s universal, which is something you balk at. Well good luck trying to eat your cake and have it too if you think you can abandon a principle that applies evenly and with equal force in all directions and situationally justify this in relativistic terms that are without analogical moral contradictions.
Then per the Socratic method, you’re being irrational. There’s nothing that prevents someone from being a dumb ass either. If you object in basis of sound reasoning, you can at least be correct or morally consistent. Absent reason, you’re being irrational.
In Catholicism innocence is defined as the state of being unburdened by deliberate malice or evil. Children are innocent because they lack the rational maturity and understanding to commit mortal sin. The reason this “clump of cells,” (which also captures you and I incidentally) is a human is because it possesses a unique genetic blueprint that is distinct from both parents and is placed on a developmental trajectory towards a fully actualized human being.
Now give me your morally coherent framework for how “none of this,” supposedly counts.
This was me being charitable to you.
This is not you returning that charity. This is you taking my gift horse to the glue factory.
How about you do it first? You've spilt a lot ink not describing any of those terms and wanting me to do all the works so you can attempt to knock them down.
Then fucking do so and stop telling me you can.
Again, prove it, show me the deets.
You are literally doing what you accuse me of.
Asking you to actually define your terms is not irrational. Accusing me of being an idiot or irrational because I am holding you to any normal debate standard is insane.
How about you stop bloviating and do it first. You are claiming this grand universal moral theory that perfectly encapsulates everything but evade any attempt to actually explain what that is. I am not claiming some grand perfect moral theory, I'm just claiming that yours is not universal. Your response to that is hate and ad hominins...
It also captures sperm cells and eggs. Does jacking off into a cup count as murder?
"Will become X" is not the same as "already is X" in the full morally relevant sense. You are smuggling in the assertion that because something has an endpoint it must already possess the moral status of that endpoint at all points in time.
Cool, now define innocence without appealing to Catholicism or sin. I'm not catholic and neither is 84% of the world.
This is what having a discussion requires. You need to leave your frame just as I leave mine, and you define your arguments in ways I can understand and agree with and vice versa. It is not a "I'm going to dictate to you what is right or wrong from my castle and you can accept it or be wrong" Considering we don't live in a theocracy, as much as apparently you'd like to (see I can be uncharitable too), Christian morals are not auto-includes in government because we have separation of church an state.
You were being charitable by not having an argument to provide?
It's probably a good idea you finish reading the post before you reply. Your question was answered at the bottom.
You see quite a lot my friend. Too much. How about calmly reading my statements without reading into them?
The argument is not one from potential. Engaging in the act itself I said "puts it on a developmental trajectory," and initiates the biological process.
"Malice" and "evil," homie. Or do those not exist in your vocabulary either?
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