site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I don't think you've really engaged with my point at all.

Yeah, I get it you have an excuse. A good excuse.

No I don't. I plan to have lots of kids, and I'm well-prepared to do so. There is nothing stopping me from having at least 5 children, we just haven't started yet, and plan to within a year or two. I mentioned my age already so you should know that this plan is perfectly reasonable, as opposed to the single mid-30's women who still plan on starting big families.

If you were in the same position as you are now but it was 1953 instead of 2023, you'd have kids.

Yes, I would, but due to the factors I mentioned I'm not in the same position. I don't actually think money has much to do with whether you can have children, but I do think the sexual marketplace does, and that was my point throughout my comment.

And if you expect to raise fertility rates, bitching that women need to stop being so picky with dating apps isn't going to get you anywhere, because that isn't the problem.

I agree, but I think the same factors which led to picky women have also led to the fertility problem, which was what I was (perhaps unclearly) trying to get at. Thus, men complaining about how picky and unfertile women are are perhaps missing the point, but they're gesturing towards an obvious problem in our current society in a clear way. When your grandpa had kids in the 50's-60's The divorce rate was about half of what it is now and I suspect the "true" divorce rate was even lower comparatively, because nowadays many people just don't get married in the first place. You don't think this has anything at all to do with women being more picky?

There are plenty of other important factors too. People in the 50's (or even earlier) very rarely went to college, and often didn't even finish high school. That's like 4-8 extra years they had as a head start on starting a family. Jobs didn't require diplomas to nearly the same degree that they do now, so they essentially were in similar financial positions 4-8 years earlier than their equivalents nowadays.

I'll be more clear about my central point. Women have MUCH more power in nearly all heterosexual relationships, and this power disparity has been increasing over the years. When people say women are too picky on dating apps, this is what they are gesturing towards. My situation is similar--if I were in your grandpa's shoes I would start having kids immediately because I would be less worried about the strength of my relationship with my wife. This has nothing to do with culture (at least, childrearing culture), it just has to do with the different circumstances in which we find themselves.

There is nothing stopping me from having at least 5 children, we just haven't started yet

"We just haven't started yet". And that's it, ladies and gentlemen, if we're talking about fertility levels. "Lord, make me fertile - but not just yet" to adapt the saying.

Right, if you're young enough "we haven't started yet" is perfectly reasonable. The reason it has taken on a negative connotation is because of all the single mid-30's people still saying it, which I already mentioned.

I'm nearing the older end of what I'd consider reasonable, but I think you're silly if you think starting at 25 is too late.