site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

15
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Their political thinking and what they like/dislike are basically determined by what resonates with them on the most aesthetic and superficial of levels, and a huge amount of their political criticisms amount to implying that their opponents' optics are bad and distasteful to them instead of actually engaging with the meat of the arguments being made. Again, knowledge doesn't seem to change this because it's a fundamental, deeper problem with their mindset and personality that's independent of how much one knows.

Interesting, I wonder how much this connects with something I started noticing ~8 years ago and continues to be en vogue now among many people on the left, which is calling political things they disagree with "gross" or "not a good look." Both of which are obviously subjective aesthetic judgments rather than any sort of meaningful criticism, though they're always stated as if they're supposed to be taken as meaningful criticisms. I've written about the "gross" before, but I recall being absolutely befuddled by seeing other leftists use it to describe right-wing behavior in a negative way, because much of our activism in the prior decade had been about getting society to accept gay marriage and homosexuals in general, and one of the key arguments for the case had been that someone's personal disgust reaction should have absolutely zero bearing on the ethical correctness of that thing - i.e. just because you're viscerally disgusted by the idea of 2 men kissing, it doesn't make a romantic/sexual relationship between 2 men any less beautiful or less worth tolerating, if not celebrating, than one between a man and a woman.

This then connects with one theory that I had, which is that many of the fellow "liberals" fighting for gay marriage weren't fighting for liberalism at all, but rather was using it as a vehicle by which to push forward something that they themselves didn't find disgusting - theater and the arts are well known to have a very high proportion of gay people relative to the broader population, and as such one would expect that people in those groups would tend to have less of a disgust reaction, if any, towards their friends, coworkers, and other direct peers.