This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Toilets are organised by SEX, as reified by multiple legal rulings. If you would like toilets to be organised by GENDER, then argue for it.
You're allowed to pretend you're a different SEX, but we'll sometimes still treat you as your birth SEX because that is what is relevant, that is what people care about, and that is the biological reality. It is different from not being allowed to pretend you're a different sex because that's disgusting and you're disturbed.
The original poster, who is actually trans, is sane and recognises this fact and wants to discuss how we might live with it while minimally distressing trans people. I don't agree with him/her on everything but I appreciate his/her candour. You are unfortunately proving why it is not viable in the real world, because you refuse to be clear in your language, you constantly make weaselly efforts to misinterpret mine, and you act as if asking people to use the toilet three steps to the left is a terrible, sinful thing rather than a necessary compromise if people want to be treated as a different sex elsewhere.
Women are being permitted to use women's toilets. Men are being permitted to use men's toilets. All fine and dandy.
Again, come on. You didn't just spring into existence in a Bay Area cuddle pile three years ago. You know perfectly well that using biological sex has been the norm for humanity since Adam lost a rib one day. You can talk like normal people if you try. If you would like to make an argument for using your stupid circular definitions then you can, although I've seen enough of those attempts to be pretty sure it won't go well. If you'd like to make a new word for gender-woman then you can. But stop wrinkling your brow every time people use 'women' and 'men' to mean precisely what they've always meant, or hostilely redefining them to make it sound like there's a problem when there just isn't one. After six years it no longer works.
This has not happened and nobody has mooted making it happen. Even the ruling you cited, whilst not a good ruling, was saying that maybe bringing a bearded male-impersonator into a therapy group for people traumatised by males might sometimes be inappropriate. That was it. Frankly, I doubt it's ever going to be relevant since I've known a trans man and they were fooling nobody. But no, women should use women's toilets even though for relevant biological reasons people care about this less.
By "original poster", I meant @SnapDragon who is not trans.
And there are trans men out there who do pass. What about them?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link