This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This will be some an half-formed nonsense blatted out 5 minutes before going to bed but I think that one of the major innovations of western civilization, and a major driver of it's success was the development of a bright line distinction between the moral/religious world and the material. IE "Render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar's, and Render unto God that which is God's". It also seems to me that much of [current year] moral and political philosophy is organized around the of undoing this innovation as post-modernism is itself a reaction against the success of Western Civilization.
When discussing modern liberalism the state is best understood as a substitute for religion. Whether any given act is moral or immoral is entirely determined by politics not principle.
This is the kind of answer I needed. I don't like how you frame things, but it actually makes me angry that I was never taught this. Even if you call it nonsense, I just didn't know about Post-modernism's implications. I thought it was just an ideology, not that the West followed it blindly. I didn't know modern liberalism treats the State as a substitute for religion, or that politics determines what's good and evil.
So if the State has become the only church we have left, does that mean we've just gone back to the pre-Christian pagan model—where the State was the Church and there was no separation? I don't really see "progress" in that.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link