This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What else could it possibly be? Iconoclasm is still, ultimately, a form of respect for the power of the idol. True contempt is indifference.
Since 2024 even Richard Dawkins calls himself a Cultural Christian. All the parts of New Atheism that aren't ex-muslim apostates are so pretty much. And Old Atheism was so self evidently.
No, it's also about making things not happen. Which is mostly what cultural victory is about. Long settled arguments about things you don't even think about like whether children owe anything to their parents, whether individuality has any value, whether you should obey the law or your own internal morality first or whether humans can be property.
People say Tradition has no power, and then go on to not do all the things Tradition managed to eradicate.
Where is the power of Christianity? In that a lot of the things you list as contrary to its doctrine are still viewed as either outright sins or objects of moral debate. A civilization without this influence simply does not ask such questions.
It is waning though, you are right about that. Time makes everything diminish. And Western civilization is old now and far into its second barbarism. But just because power wanes doesn't mean it ceases to exist as a factor. The Romans still have eminent effects on us down to how we record time itself, never mind half of the world's laws.
Almost none of these are actual pagan stories full of pagan virtue though. They're Christian subversions. God of War was almost so explicitly.
The stories that actually extol pagan values are few and far between, and almost all of them are products of Nietzscheans like Milius or Coppola who are still haunted by the corpse of God despite their best efforts to transcend him.
To be the most valiant opponent of something is to be its strongest proponent. Someone who isn't irremediably a son of Abraham would simply not think about him at all. Not make endless art about his mythology.
Gaze into the Abyss and it gazes back into you. Black Sabbath is Christian Rock.
Which are all still derived from a cultural substrate. A setting is nothing but set dressing for themes. Which are in turn simply expressions of a worldview. All art is propaganda for something as Orwell famously said.
The Soviets had scifi stories that weren't about Christian themes, or at least not so directly since those values were still filtered through Marxism and irrigated by non-western cultural input like Cosmism. Even China today exports award winning scifi that works from its own cultural lens.
But the West can't run away from its own shadow. It is futile to try.
More options
Context Copy link