This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You may be right that assimilation is better. I think it is whenever possible. So the ghettos are only for those who refuse or can’t do the bare minimum assimilation (which doesn’t require abandoning their culture, just adherence to laws and manners), and (probably would naturally end up) in worse conditions. Anyone who can learn to do the bare minimum should be encouraged to leave, and their children should be exposed to both inside and outside education and experience, then can choose for themselves when they reach adulthood.
I don’t support keeping jobs scarce to empower the working class, like I support self-checkout and robotics. Because I believe increased efficiency (if not automation) is inevitable in the long run. More importantly, in my original comment I explained that the alternative to at least some refugees is fascist infrastructure (unless there’s another effective way to prevent desperate immigrants supported by a sizable fraction of the population; I’d like to hear any proposals), which would probably be worse for the working class than whatever we have now.
I want the working class to have better conditions, but my proposal is for them to leave owners who’d exploit them: building and promoting cooperatives, voting for antitrust and pro-small-business regulations, building connections (with immigrants and upper classes), in the meantime living off welfare or getting better jobs themselves. I support the extra inefficiency of small businesses because it has advantages (familiarity, variety, less enshittification), and I think preventing monopolies is more feasible (even if not generally feasible) than preventing efficiency gains; alternatively, near-monopolies are fine if they avoid enshittification, citizens aren’t being overworked or starving (maybe there’s UBI), and there are emergency alternatives (hence near-monopolies).
More options
Context Copy link