This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What kind of unforgiveable heathen thinks turkey burgers can even come close?
Ostrich makes for an interesting burger, but like bison (and turkey) it's too lean to be properly juicy.
That's awesome.
In my experience black Americans are way more 'normal' about most stuff than white progressives, my experience of whom comes from academia and nerd spaces.
Yeah, that matters. I live in Raleigh, NC, and the city does not, in my opinion, have much of a personality of its own to withstand certain issues. In the white progressive milieu of mostly-newcomers, there's a distinct sense of embarrassment, that they live here but they're a bit ashamed of that, and feel a need to overcompensate for being in "the South."
Well my wife does make an amazing home made turkey burger, which is what fueled the debate.
There is a lot said on this site about how black Americans haven't assimilated but I think that's untrue. They just assimilated to a particular type of American culture which is descended from my own Ulster-Scots/Scots-Irish borderer culture, which is what was often around them, in the South. In many of my wife's family events the beats are very similar to being back home, even if the details are different. My wife was a hit with my rural working class uncles because she was raised in a similar environment culutrally even it it was thousands of miles apart. It's a rowdier, more overtly "masculine" culture than the WASPy American culture in the North East or even the more genteel Southern Cavalierish one in the South. Which is why comments here about how white people don't like noisy sports celebrations and rowdy behaviour always make me laugh. It's kind of totalizing the American experience to a very specific subset of American upper middle classish white people.
I would agree that white progressives can be much more performative (in my experience anyway), possibly driven by white guilt (and exacerbated if from the South). Having said that, when I first moved to the US I dated a scion of what used to be a pretty powerful Southern family (the type who still have debutant balls and the like) whose family did own plantations and slaves in the past, and that did appear to be something they truly were guilty about rather than a performance so its hard to tell sometimes. There is a particular kind of American who feels that America should have done better in holding up its founding ideals (all men created equal et al) and that this is a real and enduring fault.
Progressivism grew out of real issues and real problems which is how it was able to build a coalition so quickly, because there are a lot of true believers who had indeed witnessed/experienced actual injustices. My wife's grandmother was a locally prominent civil rights organizer and it's hard to judge a distrust for white people when reading her diaries. Having said that even she on her deathbed recanted her prohibition on my wife "dating out" so things can and do change.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link