This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The basic problem as I see it is the "life script" of society. However you want to hammer it out, everything in our culture points people to certain patterns of behavior and consumption. The general trend as I see it is toward atomization and commercialization. Everything is a service, a product, a subscription. You don't have a guy for things, you have an app. You leave home to go to school, then to college, then you move to the big city to make your career so you can be a success so you can get the fuck out the city and move back to a small town except for a richer class of person. You know, the American Dream. If you're smart enough and work hard enough you'll have enough money to never need other people.
This script is terrible for family formation, for family incentivization, and for family retention, which is the best outcome. As noted, it's mostly hyperconservative groups (like my faith-healing cult family) that buck the trend. You have to reject modernity in at least this script. You can have a car and a job and a degree if you want, but you can't base your life on Sex & the City and expect happy families or positive fertility as a group outcome. You have to value different things. You have to value family, you have to live near family, you have to rely on your family and that means you have a lot of people relying on you for things. The script calls this "oppression". People who value different things see it as a cheat code to get to the end.
You don't have to leave home and go on a thirty-year career as a stranger everywhere you live. You don't have to wait until retirement to live on a small farm in the country, or suburbia. You don't have to live far from family. No one is forcing you, and yet at scale, no one does this but the very religious.
This is because the script is how you get into the middle classes with the fantasy of making it into the ruling class. Cut yourself off from family, denounce religion, value academic rank and material success over community engagement. Join one of the mystery cults of the middle class; feminism, LBGTQ+, third worldism, marxism, climate hysteria, etc. etc. Ever notice all of these movements are hostile to religion and fertility? The one thing they can all agree they want less of is married majority couples at positive fertility.
More options
Context Copy link