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PaperclipPerfector  2d ago (text post)   8998 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 13, 2026

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I don't think that's remotely comparable. You are talking about an employment contract, the fact that you think this can be placed in the same category as motherhood is already morally repugnant to me.

I know its not remotely comparable, that's why I said lumping them all together as "selling people" was obtuse. Selling slaves and surrogacy for money and MLB trades can all be described as "selling people", that those things are not (morally) comparable is my point. Because these "selling people" scenarios have wildly different moral valences "It's morally wrong to sell people" obviously has a little bit of nuance to it.

But even if you think consent is the only valid moral factor, these contracts were entered into voluntarily, and the player / worker can refuse to be "sold".

First thing is that's not even true, a MLB player can be sold against his will to another team. It happens all the time, and it not possible for him to refuse.

Second is that in both the particular surrogacy in question and the practice at large are also contracts entered into voluntarily. If you are going to argue that the baby gets a say - no, it doesn't. Does a baby get a say on if it is adopted? No. Has any baby ever had a say as to if or when or how they are born? No. Its never been the case, so why is it here?

"Selling people" is understood to be bad for reasons like the people being sold don't have a say in the matter

Like the children...

Ok this one by me was maybe not precise, but I have a feeling you get the gist of what I am saying. I am referring to something like Kunta Kinte being shipped off to the deep south against his will, people generally think that is mean and bad. Given that no newborn child at any point in history has ever had a say in any matter I hoped that you realized that I was referring to something like Kunta instead of something unremarkable and due to the inherent nature of newborns.

they have less rights than others

like the children...

I am going to assume you weren't talking about the fact that children and adults have different rights because that's not remarkable or the point of contention here.

What right does a non surrogate child have that a surrogate child does not? The right to a mother? Baby has a mother. How could it be born if it didn't have a mother? That it is adopted by two gay men, one being the father, does not strike the mother from existence.

there is typically violence or coercion involved.

the only reason it doesn't is that the child is too weak to put up any kind of violent resistance.

Really? I don't believe you. You couldn't possibly know this, its not falsifiable, did a baby tell you this? No, you just made it up.

Also the mothers' material situation is often taken advantage of, which may be on the softer side of coercion, but it still plausibly fits in the same category.

  1. The woman in question is not the babies mother. The egg was not hers, it was a donor's.
  2. The woman in question was not coerced or pressured into surrogacy, per the article in Canada surrogates are not allowed to be paid anything beyond costs for their surrogacy.
  3. You are making a fully general argument here - anyone can be coerced about anything, you can argue against anything by saying that "oh someone's martial situation could be taken advantage of here so its coercive"

They absolutely do. Slavery is not considered abhorrent because the masters always and everywhere mistreat their slaves, in fact "but we always treat aware slaves with kindness" was a staple pro-slavery argument back in the day, and it was rejected because treating people as ownable and sellable was considered immoral. That argument applies to surrogacy 1:1.

The surrogate was not any given money for the kid. Per the article she was not even given money for the costs she incurred.

The parents don't own the kid beyond the extent every parent or guardian "owns" their kid. One of them is the actual father! Its his kid!

If that argument applies to surrogacy 1:1 then why doesn't it here?

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