This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What? You seem to be implying that the exact same strictures should exist on government action and on private action. As I said, that the government took an action that caused B doesn't imply ordinary citizens can also cause B with impunity.
To be clear, I am not. Especially not as a legal matter. As a public perception matter, their justification shows immense hypocrisy.
Completely separate from that is the legal matter of "serious violence", which is horribly ill-supported in this document, to the crazy extent of stochastic pre-crime.
Well you said that hypocrisy arises from the fact that the courts accepted economic damage as a (secondary) justification for allowing the government to break up the protests, but allowed lockdowns to go ahead despite the economic damage they caused; this is only hypocrisy if one thinks that the government taking action to prevent economic damage is an analogous case to taking an action to remedy another ill which unfortunately entailed economic damage, which is silly.
I think I explained poorly. Consider the statement, "Agent A takes Action B to remedy Ill C, potentially also causing Effect D."
In one case, A = Government, B = Lockdown, C = COVID, D = Economic Damage.
In a second case, A = Protesters, B = Protest, C = Economic Damage, D = Lesser Economic Damage.
In a third case, A = Government, B = Declaration of Emergency, C = Lesser Economic Damage, D = Degradation of Civil Liberties.
The side effect of the second case is absolutely de minimis compared to the side effects of the first and third, yet the minimal side effect coming out of the second case is meant to justify a vastly worse thing in the third case. The requirement is that the former/latter cases must be acknowledged as Righteous and Good, while the middle case must be condemned as Hitler and Satan and Racist and....
One can reasonable agree/disagree between the first two based on the relative understanding of the situation, particularly the severity of COVID. But to take the required stances on the first two and then claim that the latter is Righteous and Good is hypocrisy. If such small amounts of economic damage are that important to declare an emergency and suspend civil liberties, then perhaps much worse economic damage is a sufficient impetus to make a little bit of protesting not Hitler and Satan and Racist and....
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link