This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Socialism is just the natural voting choice of a society in which almost all adults are allowed to vote. The thing that really has to be explained is why not all major political parties in mass franchise democracies are socialist. And this can be explained: other factors such as pride, ethnic tensions, pro-capitalism propaganda, etc. can override the desire for socialist redistribution. So can intellectual arguments about how socialism fails, but let's face it, only a tiny minority of the population are familiar with them so they don't really play that much of a role except perhaps when rewritten by capitalism-loving think tanks to appeal to a mass audience.
Another thing that can override the natural popularity of socialism is a widely held notion that the economy is doing well, that a rising tide is lifting all boats. I think we probably had something like that in the 1950s. We don't have that now. I'll leave aside arguments over whether the economy is really doing well or not. The important thing when it comes to the current argument is that large numbers of people are upset with how it's doing.
In recent years in the US, one of the major reasons for the low popularity of socialism has been just the plain off-putting nature of many people who are vocally into socialism, plus the fact that many of them are anti-white racists and/or are into ideas like "defund the police". But it stands to reason that as soon as socialists manage to actually get their act together and stop seeming like insane weirdoes, the popularity of socialism rises. Especially given the progress of AI that increasingly is capable of doing more and more people's jobs.
I don't even think that socialism is a good way to run a pre-AI society in the long term, although I think that it might be the only viable way to run a post-AI society. I'm familiar with and agree with the major arguments against socialism: it stagnates economic and technical progress, eventually leading to worse outcomes across the board including for the working class, and it tends to result in authoritarianism and often mass murder. I'm pretty far from being someone who is sympathetic to socialism.
And even despite all that, I would still happily vote for a socialist or at least a social democrat party IF I could believe that voting for them would result in better economic conditions for me and wouldn't just result in having the local police force defunded. I have my own material prosperity to think about. The possibility that socialism might overall make things worse for the working class 10-20 years down the road compared to if we stayed with a more capitalist model... eh... I don't know, the reality is that I want to ensure my material well being now and try make sure that AI progress doesn't turn my current economic class into a luxury that the rich only have incentive to keep around out of altruism.
Any anti-socialism arguments that are likely to actually work on me would have to appeal to my selfishness. Indeed, socialists themselves would be able to appeal much better to me if they did a better job of appealing to my selfishness.
Trump's socialist-leaning qualities do that for many people (I'll put aside the question of the degree to which his socialism is just a con). It's somewhat socialist-leaning economics without the stereotypical blue haired people, the vegan communes, and the "white people bad". Also without the boring mundane day-in-day-out activities of labor union organizing, which is probably the other main thing that people were identifying with socialist-leaning politics until recently. The "dirtbag left" is another, much more culturally leftist variant, of the same thing. Basically, socialism in the US reached a stage of irrelevance at some point that it actually had to be rescued from the people who were calling themselves socialists. Now that it kind of, to a limited extent, has been, it's understandably on the rise.
More options
Context Copy link