This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Patronage in general is the dominant strategy in a democracy. I think Latin America is an instructive example: they way the 19th century oligarchy, and later right wing movements, got popular support was via patronage. It could take the form of anything between local Don Gonzales getting you a loan to el Partido Conservador in Colombia handing out government posts based on loyalty to Vargas in Brazil making the state the patron and protector of the urban worker. Even in the US, you had patronage in the form of machines like Tammany Hall and in forms like “write your congressman and his staff can help solve your problem.”
While libertarianism and economic liberalism is a political current even in culturally clientelist Latin America, having “vote for me and if you want recompense that’s communist” be the default right wing position is very anomalous since it just isn’t competitive politically.
The choice is in between left-wing or right-wing clientelism; libertarians can somewhat limit the whoring, but they can’t stop it.
EDIT: To add a bit of nuance, pro-market politics in the age of mass politics aren’t totally doomed the fail. The Neo-liberal turn in the 1980s and 1990s globally was a very real success. At the same time, I honestly can’t think of any society after the advent of mass politics that one could describe as “libertarian” that didn’t include patronage, welfare, or industrial policy.
More options
Context Copy link