site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

No, what I mean is that Freddie does exactly what he says he does: he holds the conventional, liberal to mildly progressive views on all the topics. And he shuts down debate in the comments because (1) he's fed-up of people starting up fights when trans whatever is not the topic of his post and (2) he holds the One Correct View and anything that clashes with it is wrong.

I don't think Freddie considers that his view on abortion might be wrong, or the other things he mentioned. So if his view is not-wrong, the opposite views must be not-right. And if they are not-right, then that must be a choice between Evil or Stupid as to why such people hold not-right views.

I don't think that the progressive view is that people can honestly hold dissenting views on abortion or trans rights or the rest of it, that it is all down to prejudice, bigotry, racism, homo- and transphobia and so forth. So I don't think Freddie is open to "I disagree with trans rights activism because I don't accept the foundational principles, let's discuss this" because he's put forward his position: trans identity is about yearning, not genetics, don't bother asking about biology or the rest of it, end of discussion.

This is not to say I think Freddie is Evil or Stupid or anything else, just that he's holding this view very tightly on the grounds that this is the view to be held as per being a good progressive, yet in other instances he can see where the progressive rhetoric fails and is not compliant with reality.

maybe consider that Freddie and I actually do spend some time thinking about issues and arrive at our own conclusions

I have read, with my own lying eyes, a Substack article by someone who earnestly and sincerely wished to get their fellow liberals/progressives to communicate with anti-abortion people. First, to do this, they have to understand something: anti-abortion rights people really do think it's a baby. Crazy, I know, but there you go. So what we have to do first is explain to them that it's a foetus, not a baby, and then all the objections will be overcome!

That was a good faith effort, and it was so wide of the mark in its understanding that I was banging my head off the desk. Yes, all we have to do is explain to the abolitionists that the negroes are not fully human to the same extent we are, and all the pother and fuss will be over!

If some people feel "I really want to wear dresses and makeup and be uWu" then I'd be happy to expand the range of gender roles so they can be men in dresses and so the hell what, rather than turn it all upside-down to be "oh you must really be a woman!", particularly as a lot of women don't care about dresses or makeup or being uWu, and it's really fucking annoying to have your sex/gender identity boiled down to "sugar and spice and everything nice" after years of feminism struggling about "women are not goddamn teddy bears".