This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The Devil in the Definitions:
We talk about class a fair bit, but it's hard to define many of them. Most of these terms are relative, and the exceptions numerous. I've been thinking about what the "working class" is, and how to distinguish it from the middle classes. It can't just be money, a successful plumber might make four times what a librarian or a teacher makes, but he is working class and they are some sort of middle class. An artist might be much poorer than most working class, but they are not working class.
My current formulation is something like this: In the west, the Working Class are those workers whose jobs do not require any college, and which do not raise their social status among the educated middle classes.
What do you think separates the classes? Am I off base here?
No, it's just money.
Anything else is simply identity politics.
It doesn't matter how much money I have, I will never be middle class to born middle class people who know where I have come from, class wise, depsite all my credentials, accent, career, education, and extemely large personal library.
I will never be upper class and neither will any future children, grandchildren, great grandchildren, or great great grandchildren. Those who come after that might be able to sneak into the upper class by marriage if they are very very lucky and every single generation between me and them rises in status and wealth.
I live in England.
Born to doleys (benefits dependant), alcoholics, cripples, and drug addicts who themselves are the failed products of feeding in farm and factory labourers into the engine of liberalisation and corruption that was the 20th century.
Someone born middle class is higher class than my birth, and it has been made clear to me, over and over again in my life that no matter how high I rise and how far they fall, I will always be lesser than them. The only way to be seen as an equal is to make sure they never find out where I am from.
Class is about birth, it has nothing to do with money.
I was talking about the US - the UK is a weird country where mllionaires are considered upper middle class because their great-great-great-great grandmother didn't marry the right rich guy.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link