site banner
PaperclipPerfector  2yr ago (text post)   39613 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Sure, it does that, but in medical settings it confuses the fuck out of exactly the uneducated and ESL people who most need to hear about eg annual pap smears. If you say, “Everyone with a cervix should get one!” that’s very precise, but a shocking number of people won’t realize it applies to them. If you say, “Women should get one!” you catch more cancers early.

Sure, if our terminology does not serve our purpose we should adjust our terminology so that it does, but the magnitude of the impact of the concerns expressed here are not clear to me.

For most purposes and in all but the most rarefied settings, “woman” does just fine. It’s not a dog at anyone who isn’t a central example of the category - it’s really not. You don’t see women who’ve had hysterectomies freaking out that we’re erasing their existence by referring to “women” rather than “menstruators.”

It's not that it's a "dog" at anyone, necessarily, it's just that it is underspecified. In the same way there are some people who are ESL or uneducated who may not realize they have a cervix there are people who need pap smears who do not think of themselves as "women." Now, I think the people who have a cervix but aren't women are probably more likely to understand they should still get pap smears than people lacking in education or who are ESL but it's a similar kind of concern.

And frankly it’s dehumanizing to be referred to by my uterus or its functions. You can disrespect 50% of the population or .6%. Take your pick.

I am skeptical anything like all women agree with you. I can't speak to the concern directly but I'm a cis man and don't think of a term like "people with prostates" as disrespectful at all.

I am skeptical anything like all women agree with you. I can't speak to the concern directly but I'm a cis man and don't think of a term like "people with prostates" as disrespectful at all.

Speaking for myself, if someone calls me “person with a prostate” I will be at best very weirded out and would probably try to find the quickest way to get the fuck away from that person.

Wouldn't that depend on the context the term is used? "Room for rent, looking for people with a prostate" I agree is bizarre and dehumanizing; but "People with a prostate should occasionally get tested for prostate cancer" seems to me pretty reasonable, and if anything more precise than any plausible alternative. Similarly, I wouldn't be caught dead using "people who menstruate" as a term to refer to women in general, but something like "people who menstruate are at a greater risk for anhaemia" is if anything better targeted advice than "women are at a greater etc." (I think, I'm not an expert on anhaemia), given that a fairly large fraction of women do not menstruate and therefore are not the subject of that statement.

I'm a cis man and don't think of a term like "people with prostates" as disrespectful at all.

I'm a cis man and I find this kind of language very creepy. It's uncomfortably reminiscent of the sort of intentionally distancing, unsettling and euphemistic language found in dystopian sci-fi.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats