site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   38856 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 5, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Yet another "bake the cake, bigot!" case in favour of the Real Genuine Totally A Lady, this time a spa owned by a Korean and wanting to restrict attendance to women-only because the clients will be naked in the pool. Trans ladies can attend but they must be post-surgery. Twist to it is that the owner is not alone conservative but Christian.

"Women with dicks are valid too!" says activist, who then sues the spa and wins the case based on a phone call and not even turning up to attend and being refused.

Seattle District Court Judge Barbara Jacobs Rothstein on Monday upheld a discrimination ruling against Olympus Spa filed by local trans activist Haven Wilvich, who gloats about being “more woman” than many feminists who’re “only incidental.”

The traditional Korean Spa had maintained that its “women-only rule … is essential for the safety, legal protection, and well-being of our customers.”

It willingly accepted transgender women — but “only if they have ‘gone through post-operative sex confirmation surgery,'” the ruling noted.

Wilvich, however, “‘identifies as a woman’ but ‘is biologically male and has not undergone sex reassignment surgery,’” the court papers said, noting that the activist never actually went to the spa.

Wilvich told The Post on Friday that the complaint came after a phone call to the spa — not a visit — and being told that “pre-op trans women were not allowed.”

“They were breaking Washington state law and I reported that violation,” the activist said.

...Spa owner Myoon Woon Lee sued to reverse the decision, saying it defied his “traditional, theologically conservative” Christian values and put his clientele at risk.

Lee — who has owned the spa for 20 years — also “conveyed his fear that exposing female customers (especially minors) to male genitalia could subject Olympus Spa to criminal penalties.”

There had been “several” incidents where customers “noticed male genitals exposed ” in the spa — creating “humiliation, trauma, and rage,” a complaint by the owner said.

“Those patrons apparently demanded refunds and never returned.”

Lee claimed that the discrimination policy “requires them to service nude males and females in the same rooms,” forcing them to “choose between violating the law or their religious convictions,” his complaint said.

The cherry on top, if I may use that phrase, for me is this:

Meanwhile, Wilvich said she regrets that she was identified in the complaint, insisting that “my name never should have been part of the public record.”

She claims that the identification in the court documents is a “dangerous precedent to be set for minority people.”

So it's okay for Ms. Genuine Even Realer Woman Than Cis Women Haven Wilvich to remain anonymous while dragging the name of the spa and its owner into public view, which might get him into trouble, but I'm A Real Lady is endangered merely by being identified as the face-ache looking for cases to be offended by and go to court to force businesses to change their policies.

So much for downstream of "gay marriage will never affect you", eh? Trans rights activists took the game plan and ran with it.

Gosh, however can a reputation for "fighting wokeness" advantage DeSantis, you wonder?

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats