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What historical record are you referring to? If you mean the very question we're discussing, then that seems circular. Anyone can claim to be implementing some set of ideas, but that doesn't mean they actually are. Marx and the USSR claimed to be following "science" and "democracy"; does that mean science and democracy were the cause of those tens of millions of deaths?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment#Religion
There doesn't seem to be anything here about forcibly getting rid of all religion. E.g.
and
Maybe there are other Enlightenment thinkers with more hard-line stances, but when I read Locke the individual choice interpretation was definitely what I understood.
The French Revolution, and the whole downstream branch of purported Enlightenment thinking and subsequent revolutions which took the French Revolution as their model, which appears to me to be the predominant portion both in raw numbers and in intellectual influence throughout the modern era.
I'm asking people what they consider to be the core elements of the Enlightenment, given the actual historical record of the movement. If you want to claim that the core element is respect for individual liberties, I'm entirely happy with that definition, provided you then exclude the revolutions, revolutionaries and theorists who rejected and trampled on individual liberties or approved of others doing so from the Enlightenment set. What I'm objecting to is the paired claims that the Enlightenment is about individual liberties, and also the French Revolution is a central example of an Enlightenment project. It seems to me that you really do need to pick one or the other, and it also seems to me that a large portion of our current consensus is built around lying about that fact.
No, it doesn't, because what people claim is of far less evidentiary value than what they do. But the flipside of this is the people who claim that Communism is Utopia, and therefore the USSR wasn't really Communist since it didn't create a Utopia. That is what I perceive you and others to be doing with the Enlightenment; you seem to be claiming that good results are part of its definition, and therefore an instance that produces bad results can't have been part of it. I think we should understand ideologies by the methods they employ and the outcomes they produce, not the outcomes they claim to be pursuing. The claims are still helpful in understanding how their agents saw themselves, but those statements should be heavily outweighed by what those agents actually did and the results they actually achieved.
And yet, the French brutally suppressed religious practice, and that brutal suppression was approved of as good and necessary by their ideological descendants, who appear to me to be the majority by numbers and influence. Again, we can claim that religious toleration is a defining characteristic of the Enlightenment, provided we conclude that this excludes the French Revolution and its descendants from the Enlightenment set. What we can't do is say that the good thing is a defining characteristic, and then not apply that criteria to those who do the opposite.
Maybe this is just my Amero-centric bias speaking, but it seems to me like the American version is much more influential worldwide. Are there any countries that are currently trying to do what the French Revolution did as far as religion? I agree that the American Revolution is fairly unique among revolutions, but I think this more likely has to do with who was doing the rebelling and the circumstances of that rebellion than ideological influence. For example, the Americans were British colonists, rather than being natives of the country they inhabited, and so were not subject to the same sort of oppression (and technological and economic disadvantage) as, say, the Indians, Haitians, Mexicans, or Congolese.
(One could even argue that the real legacy of the Enlightenment is neither of those 2 big revolutions, but rather the peaceful granting of independence to countries like Canada and Australia much later, and these data points don't even come to mind because of how boring it is. That's fairly speculative on my part though).
Yes, the French Revolution was influenced by and incorporated aspects of the Enlightenment. I think it's a mistake to judge any intellectual movement by its worst "members" since some portion of any group of people will have bullies, narcissists, sociopaths, and people just hungry for power or violence, who are willing to join any movement and utilize it to their own ends, as well as extremists who truly believe but also use it to justify violence regardless of what those beliefs actually are. For example, what exemplifies the "core elements" of Christianity? Is it the Crusades? The forceful suppression of Native American culture and religion? The preservation of Greek and Roman learning through the Dark Ages? Maximillian Koble sacrificing himself at Aushwitz? All of these are some combination of what Christianity teaches and individual behavior by individual people. The French Revolution is the same.
(Communism rightfully gets dragged because all of its examples, at least above Dunbar's number, are horrific.)
I see what you're saying, and I agree that it's fallacious to just redefine a thing you like to be "good things" and a thing you don't like to be "bad things." However, in this case I really do believe that the individual liberty interpretation is much more in line with what Enlightenment thinkers like Locke actually proposed, and French Revolutionaries were largely taking out their anger with the Church, which was heavily entwined with the monarchy and had benefited from special privileges, rather than implementing an Enlightenment philosophical vision. Particularly when you have a mass movement with individual people from many walks of life... do you think that all of those people had read and digested all of the Enlightenment thinkers? Similarly I'm sure there were aspects of the American Revolution not perfectly in line with Enlightenment principles.
Both Canada and Australia were offshoots of one of the two Enlightenment outliers: Britain and America. Their peaceful transition is certainly important evidence. On the other hand, we have Marxism, which brutally subjugated half the world for between fifty and a hundred years, while support for its conquest and its ideology was endemic throughout the elites and intelligentsia of even the Enlightenment outlier societies. That support came because Marxism claimed to be the true descendent of the Enlightenment, and that claim was accepted at face value by the educated class even in liberal states. Resistance came primarily from the far less Enlightened common people and their social systems and structures, the very social structures that mark Britain and America as significant outliers for their failure to systematically destroy them in the name of Progress and Rationality, like the rest of the Enlightened states invariably did, and as Outlier elites frequently advocated.
Do you see the shape of the problem?
Doesn't it behoove the ideologues to account for such vagaries when designing their theories? If you're going to claim to know how to make a better society, shouldn't you account for the real-world conditions that will cause your system to fail?
When the ideology itself claims that the nature of the political problem is that there are good people and bad people and the solution is for the good people to kill the bad people, I don't think you get to blame the outcomes on bad actors. What the French Revolution did wasn't a fuckup or a distortion of a reasonable plan. The plan itself was bad, they failed to notice that going in, and their progeny failed to notice it coming out, which ensured that their failures propagated down the ideological line. My understanding is that Marx came away with the lesson that they hadn't been ruthless enough. Mark Twain argued that the ends justified the means. Neither of these are defensible positions, but large swathes of the world adopted them all the same, in the name of Truth and Reason.
It's a hard question! I'd say belief in Christ and the Bible is probably a start, but the actual history of Christian implementations must be accounted for, there's no denying it. We had our own revolution, in an explicit attempt to rectify what was seen as inconsistent definitions of what Christianity actually was. Whatever your core definition, though, it needs to actually apply to the historical examples. If you claim that Christianity is defined by membership in the Catholic Church, you're saying Protestants aren't Christians. If you say it depends on a belief in the divinity of Jesus, then you're saying Unitarians aren't Christians.
For Christianity, you gave examples spanning a thousand years and several continents. The French Revolution happened at one place over a handful of years, and was steered by a reasonably-coherent ideological core composed of a relatively small number of political actors. No two things are ever identical, but some things are a whole lot more diverse than other things. The Jacobins were coherent enough to coordinate seizure of power and dictatorial rule based on a shared ideology, and their ideological progeny recognized this fact without difficulty, and did not recognize their excesses as mistakes.
Then your argument would be that the French Revolution was not a central example of the Enlightenment, and that individual liberties are a defining characteristic? If so, what do you make of all the people arguing the opposite throughout history?
I don't understand your claims in this paragraph at all. Britain, its former colonies, and the other states that those places controlled or influenced, can't possibly be an "outlier" when they represent such an enormous amount of people, land, wealth, and influence. There were only so many major powers at the time or in the immediate aftermath.
And what does Marxism have to do with this? Marx's main works were published around 50 years after the end of what is generally considered the Enlightenment, and represents a very different intellectual tradition. Maybe Marx and some his followers thought they were the following in the Enlightenment tradition, but I don't see it at all, except to the extent that you could group literally all Western philosophy into one big tradition, but which is far too broad to ask a question like "Of the American Revolution of 1776 and the French Revolution of 1789, which hewed closer in practice to the essential spirit of Enlightenment ideology?" Each generation of thinkers presumably takes influences from their predecessors, while also rejecting some of what came before. While you can have fuzzy boundaries for sure, I feel very comfortable placing the late-1800s socialists, the early- to mid- 20th century socialist states, and their apologists in Western academia, outside the purview of "The Enlightenment."
I'm not really sure I follow, but it is impossible to anticipate all of the possible ways in which someone might misinterpret or misuse your ideas. Aside from the infinite range of human excuse-making and rationalization and stupidity, if someone can ignore what you write about individual liberty, they can also ignore what you write about not ignoring the part about individual liberty.
Ok, but did Enlightenment thinkers actually say that? Or did some people just hamfistedly glue their unrelated complaints to vague ideas about equality and distrust of authority and hierarchy?
It wouldn't be hard to give examples that are much closer in space and time. Just look at the reactions to Martin Luther's theses, for example, which split down the middle of countries or even families. Or the differences across the groups of Albion's Seed.
I think it's less central than the American Revolution, but also, the new system didn't even last that long. Napoleon took over, then the Bourbon monarchy was restored, then you had the revolution of 1830, then another in 1848, then Napoleon 3rd declared himself Emperor until 1870. While this initial event had something to do with the Enlightenment, it seems weird to me to over-index on this one fairly short event. Modern France's government is based on what happened many decades later, while America is still using the same Constitution we had in 1792. As I described above, I might just be biased as an American, but violent revolution against the existing powers is nothing new. For example, do any of the things you identify as negatives in the Enlightenment also seem to describe the Hussite wars of 400 years prior, and if so, why?
People also argue that the American Revolution is a central example of the Enlightenment, and your post is largely about the differences between the 2 revolutions. So do you argue the American Revolution is not a central example? Do you agree that 2 things can be wildly different while still being part of one big intellectual movement? Do you think that all of those people you mentioned are just confused?
You originally asked, "I think a good place to start is with a simpler question: Of the American Revolution of 1776 and the French Revolution of 1789, which hewed closer in practice to the essential spirit of Enlightenment ideology?"
In order for this question to be meaningful, there has to be an "essential spirit" which is not simply defined by the behavior of people in those revolutions, as the latter would be circular. It seems like your answer is to define this "essential spirit" as being closer to the French version mostly because that version was more... popular? Globally influential? Which is something you can do, I guess, but is mostly an empirical question and I'm far from sure that you're correct, and in any event seems fairly close to saying that Catholicism is closer to true Christianity simply because there are more Catholics than any other branch.
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