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Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

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The difference between you and Hoppe is that he doesn't want a monopoly on what a good society is. The Taliban and Californians get to live in their own little hellholes they made for themselves if they want to. And we only bomb them to a crisp if they fuck with us, none of this civilizing crap, no interference. I don't trust you to have the same restraint. Like the Californians you wouldn't want to leave people alone if you can "help" them.

So instead of rotating between the two clichés of "you said they'd be no rules but here you are enforcing rules" and "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds", which are both completely discarding what libs actually believe in, maybe explain to me how you freely nipping things in the bud doesn't turn tyrannical.

Hoppe does want a monopoly on what a good society is in the society he lives in, even in a Libertarian utopia. He wants the ability to freely associate with those who agree with him and freely disassociate from those who don't. To the end of ostracizing those he does not like from his society and protecting his society from those that would harm it. He does not want to live with the 'undesirables' or subject himself to their whim and suffer through whatever affronts to his moral sensibilities that their twisted minds can come up with after they've been afforded the freedom to do so.

You trusting him more than me to not have that ball roll into some kind of totalitarian foreign policy is completely irrelevant to my stated views. If that's all you have I am very content with saying you don't have much. Because I am not asking for something radically different from Hoppe. I just want the thing formalized in plain English instead of squeezing it out through Libertarian priors.

I assume my preferred views wont lead to "tyranny" for the same reason Libertarians assume theirs wont lead to "tyranny".

Really it comes down to a simple question.

Do you guarantee exit rights? And if so, how?

That's the difference between you and him. And I think it's significant.

The same way Libertarians "guarantee" anything. By making stuff up on internet forums.

I believe my principles and my vision for the future will lead to good just like Libertarians believe about theirs. The thinly veiled insinuations that I don't sufficiently share your values or hold the correct ones in high enough regard to be trusted is, to not labour a point, asinine.

To some degree you're right, promises from the sovereign are inherently easy to break. But I don't think asking for cryptographic guarantees that you can't seize my assets and institutional control or something is unreasonable or difficult these days.

Or if we want to remain within the realm of making shit up, a base culture and custom of limited government goes a long way. Made up religions like libertarianism actually have important concrete effects.

I guess another way of asking that question is how do I know you're not going to pull a Stalin? Most non-anarchist, even of the absolute monarchist kind, have an answer to that question. And when they don't, like the Italian street brawlers, it's not encouraging.

Libertarianism is not averse to massive power disparities and the problems inherent to those don't vanish just because you allege yourself to be ideologically principled. Having an 'answer' like we are playing a political game of top trumps is just an exercise in self delusion. How do I know you are not going to pull a Stalin?

To make it simple, if your promise to your outgroup is that you wont harm or disadvantage them then you are a liar. And if you believe anyone to be above the track record of human nature, be that a faith in yourself or your ingroup, you are not a serious person.

Having an 'answer' like we are playing a political game of top trumps is just an exercise in self delusion.

Of course it is. But delusions are necessary. Power is magic after all.

To make it simple, if your promise to your outgroup is that you wont harm or disadvantage them then you are a liar. And if you believe anyone to be above the track record of human nature, be that a faith in yourself or your ingroup, you are not a serious person.

These statements are true and unobjectionable. But you may as well say God does not exist.

What I think you're missing is that the lie is not just necessary, it's righteous. And in many ways it's more true than the cynicism a rational analysis of politics must confine itself to.

Political formulas and how believable they is important. Endlessly pointing out that they're ultimately all bullshit is infantile postmodernism. If you want to be more than a thug with a gun, you need something to believe in. Even the aforementioned italian brawlers understood that, if too late to make a good religion.

I agree, but to that end I see no use for considering you or anyone else Libertarian. If everyone has to be on the same page ideologically you are not offering any more freedom than anyone else. Of course you feel free to do what you wish when you already believe in the just nature of established boundaries.

As a religion I don't like pie in the sky stuff. I much rather prefer something that's concrete like ethnicity and fixed real life borders to ground our religion in. As it's much more resistant to subversion.

Well I suppose at least nationalism is a tried and true one. And depending on which nation we're talking about, it does have limits in custom.

One has to wonder how compatible with modernity it is though. The current peace is not satisfactory, but the sort of total war that comes with true national fervor is not desirable either.

Hopefully modern warfare returns to small scale engagements, like Ukraine seems to be hinting at.