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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   30225 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of August 14, 2023

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Ok, thanks for clearing up your literary turn of phrase.

Back to the main quest. So, you're actually just ignorant of the examples people have of a double standard. Perhaps you could check out the IG report on the matter, with choice quotes from agents who were sure that he committed the same crime, more blatantly, and had no idea why he wasn't prosecuted?

Why would I do that? I don't dispute that unfair application of the law is a thing that happens sometimes, and I'm not trying to assert it didn't happen in this particular case. Nothing about my opinion or argument hinges on whether or not Mike Flynn was given the same treatment as some other guy.

I'm not arguing that no double standards exist ever. I'm not even arguing that Trump has not been subjected to double standards. I'm arguing that does not give him a free pass to attempt to illegally hold onto power.

Most people simply refuse to entertain the idea that there have been unfair applications at all. They rest, as you seemed to have rested, on, 'If he did a crime, he should go to jail.' But that reasoning is completely undermined if, what is actually happening, is unfair application of the law. So, the minimal pathway of arguing is to demonstrate that there are, in fact, unfair applications of the law. This far, you seem to agree. Then, argue that those unfair applications have been targeted against Trump and Trump-adjacents, while being lenient toward others, which dovetails into the claim that the entrenched powers of the bureaucracy are using their hard power in a differential fashion. It is not yet clear what your opinion is on this matter. Finally, we would be in a place to discuss whether these particular charges are of a kind with those or not. But right now, we're at step two.

Do you accept that Mike Flynn was prosecuted for something that Paul Combetta was given a pass for, even though Combetta far more clearly and egregiously violated the law in question? If not, why not? If so, do you have an explanation for this other than that the entrenched powers of the bureaucracy are using their hard power in a differential fashion against Trump-adjacents?

This is the easy part, where we can hopefully come to some relatively benign agreement, in order to show that we are reasoning from similar-enough premises that we don't have to discuss the final topic across a vast inferential gap.

I'm arguing that does not give him a free pass to attempt to illegally hold onto power.

Given that he, in fact, gave up office as scheduled, do you think that he should be allowed to run again in a free and fair election?

Most people simply refuse to entertain the idea that there have been unfair applications at all. They rest, as you seemed to have rested, on, 'If he did a crime, he should go to jail.' But that reasoning is completely undermined if, what is actually happening, is unfair application of the law.

I disagree. To the extent that there has been unfair application of the law, the rectification of that is that other people who have been treated leniently should also be punished. It does not imply that the clearly guilty should go free.

Do you accept that Mike Flynn was prosecuted for something that Paul Combetta was given a pass for, even though Combetta far more clearly and egregiously violated the law in question? If not, why not? If so, do you have an explanation for this other than that the entrenched powers of the bureaucracy are using their hard power in a differential fashion against Trump-adjacents?

I neither accept nor dispute it. I remain entirely ignorant of who Combetta is and what he is supposed to have done.

I accept that it's entirely possible that the law has been unfairly applied in this case. I further accept that it is possible that such unfair treatment was due to political agendas. If that is the case, and Mr Combetta has been unjustly protected, then the appropriate remedy is to remove those law enforcement officials that have failed to apply the law in an even handed fashion, and to install new ones who will zealously pursue justice against Mr Combetta.

Given that he, in fact, gave up office as scheduled, do you think that he should be allowed to run again in a free and fair election?

No, this is the Sideshow Bob argument. "Attempted murder? What is that? They don't give Nobel Prizes for attempted chemistry!" It would be absurd to have a standard that only successful coups could be punished.

To the extent that there has been unfair application of the law, the rectification of that is that other people who have been treated leniently should also be punished. It does not imply that the clearly guilty should go free.

Are you sure you're willing to commit to this? We are a nation of many laws, most of which could be construed expansively (in just the kinds of ways they're doing here), so as to criminalize vast swaths of behavior that no one actually believed was criminal in the first place. Are you really willing to subject your side's politicians, your colleagues, your friends, even yourself, to criminal sanctions for whatever interpretation we can come up with of some abstruse law? Consider this classic post while you're pondering.

If that is the case, and Mr Combetta has been unjustly protected, then the appropriate remedy is to remove those law enforcement officials that have failed to apply the law in an even handed fashion, and to install new ones who will zealously pursue justice against Mr Combetta.

These people are the "entrenched bureaucracy" that we're talking about. You're now sounding like you're flying the MAGA flag.

It would be absurd to have a standard that only successful coups could be punished.

I mean, no one is being prosecuted for even an attempted coup. Remember, they deliberately chose not to prosecute "insurrection".

Are you sure you're willing to commit to this? We are a nation of many laws, most of which could be construed expansively (in just the kinds of ways they're doing here), so as to criminalize vast swaths of behavior that no one actually believed was criminal in the first place. Are you really willing to subject your side's politicians, your colleagues, your friends, even yourself, to criminal sanctions for whatever interpretation we can come up with of some abstruse law? Consider this classic post while you're pondering.

Bad laws exist. They should be repealed rather than ignored or applied unevenly. Maintaining laws on the books that no one follows just breeds contempt for the law itself, and allows for the law to be used in a discriminate way. But it should be either/or. Repeal the law, or enforce it. You have to choose one.

These people are the "entrenched bureaucracy" that we're talking about. You're now sounding like you're flying the MAGA flag.

Is there a problem with that?

I mean, no one is being prosecuted for even an attempted coup. Remember, they deliberately chose not to prosecute "insurrection".

The central bad thing that Trump did is that he attempted to use illegal and illegitimate methods to hold onto power after losing the election. That act is absolutely being prosecuted.

Note that I say "illegitimate" here as well as "illegal". By making that distinction I am highlighting that his methods were not merely illegal but also that they should be illegal - precisely because if legal they would allow someone to assume power without democratic legitimacy. This is the difference with contesting the election results in court - a process that is both legal and legitimate (because it allows correct claims to succeed and false ones to fail).

Bad laws exist. They should be repealed rather than ignored or applied unevenly. Maintaining laws on the books that no one follows just breeds contempt for the law itself, and allows for the law to be used in a discriminate way. But it should be either/or. Repeal the law, or enforce it. You have to choose one.

But what if "you" don't? What if, what we actually see in practice, in the real world, is that laws are maintained on the books that are applied unevenly and in a discriminatory fashion? What do you do then? Do you start to show contempt for the law itself (or at least the uneven appliers of the law)? Or do you sit back and smugly say that your political opponents should have no problem if they just follow the law?

The central bad thing that Trump did is that he attempted to use illegal and illegitimate methods to hold onto power after losing the election. That act is absolutely being prosecuted.

Ok, I think we're getting somewhere. Which counts would you preserve/defend? For the rest of the charges, would you agree that they are somewhere on the spectrum of "questionable to bullshit", primarily being examples of the entrenched bureaucracy's attempt to use their hard power against someone they view as a political opponent?

Sorry for dropping this conversation. Life got busy. Picking it up again.

But what if "you" don't? What if, what we actually see in practice, in the real world, is that laws are maintained on the books that are applied unevenly and in a discriminatory fashion? What do you do then? Do you start to show contempt for the law itself (or at least the uneven appliers of the law)? Or do you sit back and smugly say that your political opponents should have no problem if they just follow the law?

This could in principle be a fair point if applied to anyone other than the most senior and influential member of one of the two political parties in America. The Republican party in general, and Trump in particular, have had as much control over what the law is as anyone has. They, in particular, should be expected to abide by it.

Repeal, or enforce. They did not repeal any of the laws Trump is charged with breaking, so they should expect and accept those laws being enforced.

Ok, I think we're getting somewhere. Which counts would you preserve/defend? For the rest of the charges, would you agree that they are somewhere on the spectrum of "questionable to bullshit", primarily being examples of the entrenched bureaucracy's attempt to use their hard power against someone they view as a political opponent?

I'm not going to go through all 91 charges in detail, but I think the NY campaign finance case is weak and legally questionable, and will probably not succeed. The other 3 cases are all valid, and I expect they will all return convictions.

The documents case doesn't concern the central most bad thing that Trump did, but it was still absolutely a bad and illegal thing, and the evidence against him is overwhelming.

The Georgia case and the other DOJ case both relate to Trump's attempts to subvert the election, and both appear to me to be legally solid (though as always IANAL).

Sorry for dropping this conversation. Life got busy. Picking it up again.

No worries. The last week has been hellacious for me as well. I almost certainly wouldn't have been able to reply even if you had made a response.

This could in principle be a fair point if applied to anyone other than the most senior and influential member of one of the two political parties in America. The Republican party in general, and Trump in particular, have had as much control over what the law is as anyone has. They, in particular, should be expected to abide by it.

I don't think this really hits home. Trump made criminal justice reform and rescission of regulations (many with criminal penalties) a major push of his administration. They even won some victories toward those ends. I don't feel like, "You failed to completely and totally overhaul centuries of legal cruft and overly broad statutes, so you can never complain about differential treatment," is an argument with incredible force. Moreover, there is not often specific political will to go after specific problematic statutes until after it is visibly seen being misused. If you follow the courts regularly, you see this shit everywhere. I highly recommend the Institute for Justice as an example that you can follow. They publish a variety of articles and podcasts; here is the most recent Short Circuit. When you follow them over time, you see just how gigantic the pool is of "problematic" laws and how constant the stream is of cases which show just how problematic they are. It's a grueling beat, and the most successful tactic has been to slowly grind away at them as they come. It takes a million incremental steps over many years; there is not "one neat trick" that a Trump administration (even with Republican control of Congress) can pull to magically eliminate all of the different bullshit laws that can be given a novel interpretation in order to engage in differential prosecution. I am simultaneously for repeal and against differential prosecution.

I think there is a variant of your argument that would go through. If, for example, there was a history of Trump and his lot actively using such laws while in power, it would much more strongly imply that they did not oppose such prosecutions. Merely not being able to fully accomplish the monumental feat of strength of overhauling the entirety of the laws to eliminate the possibility of differential prosecution (for poor reasons) is not sufficient to imply assent to any old abuse that may follow.

I also think I am being consistent here. When the issue de jour was "her emails", I thought it was totally plausible that what she did violated the text of the statutes. I actually said that getting a conviction on the issue was closer to a 50/50 than 80/20 (in either direction), but the context of that claim is that we just have this broad law that could be brought to bear if you really tried hard. Nevertheless, I still went on record as being totally fine with not prosecuting, especially given the damage that could occur to the political system. In that case, as in this one, I would not rest on, "Whelp, the law exists, and Democrats didn't repeal it, so..." I don't think you should, either.

The documents case doesn't concern the central most bad thing that Trump did, but it was still absolutely a bad and illegal thing, and the evidence against him is overwhelming.

Are you concerned that other folks have done things that are similar enough that they could also be hit by the same broad statute, yet aren't being/haven't been prosecuted? If so, what are you going to do about it? If not, then your political opponents are going to chant, "My rules, your rules applied fairly, your rules applied unfairly..." and stop viewing you as a reasonable party with which societal compromises can be made.

Does the President's unique posture WRT classification authorities give you any pause that perhaps it's not a clear-cut, obvious application of long-settled (and agreed upon) law?

The Georgia case and the other DOJ case both relate to Trump's attempts to subvert the election, and both appear to me to be legally solid

I hate to say it again, but which counts? What is the core badness associated with them? Frankly, I can't really address the details of your concerns unless I understand them. At this level of generality, it's probably not possible for me to guess what the crux is.

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