naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Or is it simply advocating for a coexisting independent Palestine in both the West Bank (river) and Gaza (sea)
I think "from ... to" would imply a continuous state, so at the best this is asking for a corridor.
Realistically, it is a call for replacing all of Israel with a Palestinian state, in which Jews might or might not be safe (realistically the latter).
Slogans need to be evaluated in a cultural context. When Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Deutschland ueber alles", it was very possible that he meant that as a call to create a German nation state. However, this slogan had a very different interpretation when some Germans tried to conquer the world. Anyone singing that post-1945 can hardly claim that he means the innocent interpretation and not a call for world conquest.
Likewise, Hamas has their interpretation for what "the river to the sea" means, and has recently focused a lot of attention on the Palestinian cause with their atrocities. Using that slogan only weeks after their bloodbath and claiming that one means the goal of a state where Jews and Palestinians live in peace and friendship is basically asking to be excused on grounds of insanity.
Other than that, I mostly share your assessment. I would perhaps have emphasized a bit more how the far-right-coalition of Netanyahu with it's policy of slowly annexing the West Bank was not helping the peace process or him previously not focusing on Hamas so that that they would form a counterweight to the PLO/Fatah has now spectacularly backfired, but this is mostly because I hold Western countries like Israel to a higher standard (with great GDP comes great responsibility, and all that). I would prefer to live in Bibi's Israel to living in a Palestine run by the likes of Hamas any day of the week.
I really enjoy your podcast, btw. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! I agree with your framework for how to analyze slogans. I wrote a while ago about dog whistles and argued: "a good rule to follow is that the less ambiguous a statement is, the less likely it is a dog whistle. To me, a phrase referencing "Final Solution" is deeply ambiguous and can mean anything from total human extinction to the transcendence victory of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. Dog whistles by definition require plausible deniability, and there is more than enough in that phrase to act as a credible dog whistle."
When someone is fully aware of their statement's ambiguity yet insists on using it anyways, I think it's fair to accuse them of intentionally deploying a dog whistle.
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Notes -
I think "from ... to" would imply a continuous state, so at the best this is asking for a corridor. Realistically, it is a call for replacing all of Israel with a Palestinian state, in which Jews might or might not be safe (realistically the latter).
Slogans need to be evaluated in a cultural context. When Hoffmann von Fallersleben wrote "Deutschland ueber alles", it was very possible that he meant that as a call to create a German nation state. However, this slogan had a very different interpretation when some Germans tried to conquer the world. Anyone singing that post-1945 can hardly claim that he means the innocent interpretation and not a call for world conquest.
Likewise, Hamas has their interpretation for what "the river to the sea" means, and has recently focused a lot of attention on the Palestinian cause with their atrocities. Using that slogan only weeks after their bloodbath and claiming that one means the goal of a state where Jews and Palestinians live in peace and friendship is basically asking to be excused on grounds of insanity.
Other than that, I mostly share your assessment. I would perhaps have emphasized a bit more how the far-right-coalition of Netanyahu with it's policy of slowly annexing the West Bank was not helping the peace process or him previously not focusing on Hamas so that that they would form a counterweight to the PLO/Fatah has now spectacularly backfired, but this is mostly because I hold Western countries like Israel to a higher standard (with great GDP comes great responsibility, and all that). I would prefer to live in Bibi's Israel to living in a Palestine run by the likes of Hamas any day of the week.
I really enjoy your podcast, btw. Keep up the good work!
Thanks! I agree with your framework for how to analyze slogans. I wrote a while ago about dog whistles and argued: "a good rule to follow is that the less ambiguous a statement is, the less likely it is a dog whistle. To me, a phrase referencing "Final Solution" is deeply ambiguous and can mean anything from total human extinction to the transcendence victory of Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. Dog whistles by definition require plausible deniability, and there is more than enough in that phrase to act as a credible dog whistle."
When someone is fully aware of their statement's ambiguity yet insists on using it anyways, I think it's fair to accuse them of intentionally deploying a dog whistle.
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